MAXdev

General discussion - Why Choose MD Pro Over PostNuke
Duster - Sep 01, 2004 - 01:45 PM
Post subject: Why Choose MD Pro Over PostNuke
One can go to opensourcecms.com and see a slew of CMS programs that look like each other and may offer very few differences. With so many of them looking alike, how do you decide which one is for you? If you are considering PostNuke or are already using it, there are several reasons why we think you will find MD Pro to be a superior choice. You can download both programs or just the one you lack, but it takes time to study a program and you may overlook some important and even critical factors. You may be deceived by appearances. This guide is intended to help you in your selection not by giving you answers, but by giving you questions and letting you find your answers. Thus, the issue of bias is eliminated as you arrive at your own conclusions finding answers to questions that apply to both CMS programs.

For this comparison, we will use the MD Pro 1.07 RC1 and PostNuke 0.726 releases. These are the two versions the author of this article (Duster) is familiar with. Further, only the official packages are used in this comparison. Hacks and third party resources are not considered for either program. The purpose of this guide is to help you determine which is the better choice as it comes distributed. For many people, better will mean the easiest choice to both install and administer.

The Sites and Communities

A program is only as good as the people behind it. Consider the following in conjunction with features as you consider the options.

Communication with the community

Compare the two websites. Look up comments on this subject on the PN forums. Look up the same thing on MDP's site. Which do you feel places a greater importance on communicating with its community, including the end users, on a regular basis? Do you know who the project manager is for each CMS? How often do they communicate with the community?

Which tells you of its history?

Documentation

Compare documentation for the two programs. Which do you feel is more abundant and better able to help you with your concerns as a beginner? Is the documentation for either program adequate in addressing your installation and usage questions? Is there an ongoing effort to add to it and improve it?

Site navigation

How easy can you find your way around the respective sites? Is the site cluttered? Can you find documentation easily? Can you find third party blocks and modules easily? Do you spend more time looking than finding?

Development time

How long does it take for the next release? How long does it take for good suggestions to be added?

Next release date

Is there a projected next release date? Do the developers have a good record of keeping their projections? Is the next release weeks away or years?

Forthcoming Features

Do you know what features will be in the next version? Has there been any feedback on previously suggested features and any indication if they will be included? Are feature suggestions just generally ignored or commented on with no indication of future inclusion?

Number of developers

How many active developers are there for each CMS? The answer to this one may surprise you and teach you a lesson about making assumptions based on appearances.

Features

Only MDP has the following features and refinement. PN does not

Compare Subjects (MDP) to Sections (PN). The former allows you to enter search engine terms on the same screen where you enter an article. The latter is oblivious to search engines. Furthermore, it allows you to separate articles into multiple pages. Which would you rather use?

Built in database backup

MDP has built in database support and is shown on the admin menu because regular backups are important and we understand the concept of "out of sight out of mind". We think regular backups are so important that you should be able to perform them from within your CMS. How does PN handle db backups? Are external programs such as phpMyAdmin necessary?

Theme engine

MDP uses the popular HTML based AutoTheme program for its theme engine, although all types of themes are supported. There are hundreds of themes available for it. If you know it already, you don't have to learn something new. Since it is HTML based, it is easier to use than other systems and you can use Dreamweaver and other popular HTML editors to create and modify your themes.

Speaking of themes, MDP includes logo blanks so you may rapidly replace our logo with yours and make use of existing themes within minutes. Can that be said of PN's themes?

Refinement

MDP has a more refined look which makes data entry easier. The refinement doesn't stop there though. We are examining every part of MDP and how it functions to eliminate confusion and deficiencies passed on from parent sources PostNuke and Envolution. This is why our ephemerids block functions properly, and why you will see many refinements in MDP that you will not find elsewhere. Using a concept named zero based functionality, we examine how every part of MDP should work and then go about making sure it works that way. We pay attention to small details as well as major functions.

Doing little things well leads to doing bigger things better.

Look at the modules section of the two. The MDP modules section more easily conveys the status of the module, whether it is active, disabled or not initialized.

PN Hacks I DON'T need with MD-Pro

Looking ahead

MDP

The future of MDP is smaller than PN's, while larger at the same time. MDP 1.1 will have a smaller, leaner core. Only components considered essential for most any site will be included in its core. All the remaining modules and blocks will be optional add-ons during the installation process or later. This will include such features as ephemerids, quotes and many others. This will make it easier for people who install MDP for the first time as they won't have a lot of unused features to disable and delete.

It will be much like installing Linux where you choose what you want installed. Even for the modules you do want to install, you will be able to choose from any on the same subject. Some site admins will require only lightly featured modules while others will prefer more robust modules for commercial purposes.

Our add-ons though, will carry the same commitment to make them the best that the core modules have. They will also enjoy the benefit of support as our core modules do. Note that this does not apply to third party add-ons.

The MaxDev Association

We are in the process of setting up the MaxDev Association, a not-for profit organization to secure the future of MD- Pro. All assets of the Maxdev Project will be transferred to it and it will oversee global marketing and several other activities.

Of course, it helps to have over fifty developers in various countries also, with more joining our team periodically. MDP is not dependent on the efforts of a very small number of developers whose departure or loss could stall, cripple or halt development altogether.

PN

PN has chosen to incorporate pnRender ( a version of Smarty) in future releases of PN. This can cause incompatibility with many modules. Check their forums for more on this.

MDP is advanced faster

PN may look bigger but MDP has many more developers. PN has a few, but most of the work is done by just one developer, Mark West.

Consequently, MDP is advanced faster than PN. MDP is a multi national collaboration with multiple sites (more than a dozen). That gives it built in redundancy and backup. PN is centralized with all functions controlled from one site. it has all it eggs in one basket. PN .8 will be using the Xanthia templating engine because a PN developer lost their intended Phoenix rendering engine in a hard drive crash. He had no backup for it.

Subjective part

MD Pro is a more refined and polished product than PostNuke (that's less subjective though than you might think). A long list of hacks and other improvements was not needed with MDP. Most were already included. It only took suggesting the remaining ones to have them added as well. The differences between MDP and other CMS will grow considerably and the gap between them will widen to a chasm. We have an imaginative and very responsive group of developers and it's a real pleasure (not to mention a lot of fun) working with them.

As an admin, I like the fact that MDP has built in search engine friendly features and I don't have to add third party hacks to address this severe shortcoming. I like that it has the capability for moderated registration now. It's a feature I need. I had just gotten through adding pncUserPoints to my last PN site when I moved to MDP and discovered they too were built in. I like the fact that the people behind MD Pro think of al these details and how their product will be used in the real world. Unlike PN, there is nothing in MD Pro I need to fix.

If you are still using PN, you should give some serious thought to changing to MD Pro, or just do it. You'll be glad you did and that's an understatement.

About the author

This article was written by Duster. He began following PostNuke in May 2002 and began using it in January 2003. He moved to MD Pro in June 2004. The intent of this article is to help other people using or considering PN based on my experiences with both products and with both organizations. Furthermore, this article reflects my personal experiences and is not a part of any official MD-Pro stance.

Summary

Programs fork for many reasons. Often, emphasis is on the code, which explains why so many deficiencies are passed on from one Nuke fork to another and nothing is done about them. Many developers don't think of how a module or block functions. They only think of how it is coded. At MD Pro, we have taken a different path. While our programmers are optimizing the code, they are also improving the functionality of all the parts and make them function as they should. We have an imaginative and highly responsive group of developers. They strive for excellence on a continual basis. Some improvements are made in as little as a few minutes. We employ the talents of many people, from programmers to document writers, wherever they live in the world. Their combined efforts can be found in an excellent product destined to be even better. We invite you to install MD Pro and see for yourself.
Speedman - Sep 01, 2004 - 05:11 PM
Post subject:
Thanks Duster.

Vanessa, the project manager, is incompetent. Nothing more needs to be said except that the very life of Postnuke depends on her getting out of the way.

It's sad to see Postnuke drying up like this. Notice how new develoment has slowed to a crawl. Why is that? I think its because Postnuke has no direction and it's impossible (or a waste of time) to think long-term in developing something Postnuke. Poor Mark West. He's a good guy carrying more weight than he should have to. It's a bad deal all around.

There's a lot of talent there but, and I might be wrong, I think they are holding their collective noses and waiting for something positive to happen. I take no satisfaction seeing that it's not happening. I'd like to see it happen, but it's just not. I don't think it's going to.

I don't dislike them, in fact, I'm rooting for them. But for now, I'm just sad. I'm very sad.

Speed
Duster - Sep 01, 2004 - 06:10 PM
Post subject:
I don't disagree with you. However, it would be all to easy to disparage PN and I have no interest in doing so.I'm grateful for everything I learned from it. All the deficiencies resulted in me learning the structure a bit as I found or created solutions. The few that weren't already in MDP are in now (except for some personalized custom ones) so MDP is a little better for what I learned.

I'm especially grateful for them banning me from their forums. It gave me an incentive to do more than just keep an eye on MDP. I accomplished more in a few weeks here that I could in a year and a half there. I'm having loads of fun working with an imaginative bunch of guys who know how to get things done.

At any rate, my posting above is meant to help people choose. It takes time to examine the differences between CMS, especially when they look similar on the outside, and this should help reduce that time by presenting solid facts and points of comparison.

The simple fact is that MDP has manpower and momentum that PN can't possibly match. A few people I contacted have already switched over and we'll see droves of people like them in the months ahead.
Speedman - Sep 02, 2004 - 05:08 AM
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I believe the puissant issue is momentum. Heavy handed leaders contribute friction and stifle momentum. It is my observation that leaders become heavy handed when they lack confidence, competence, or both. They fear accountability and they worry about failure because they are threatened by both. Defensiveness is antithetical to forward-thinking and productivity; hence, a loss of momentum.

Speed
tsquez - Sep 02, 2004 - 10:33 AM
Post subject:
well in regards to your statement about getting help when it is needed, I still have not gotten an answer to my question about my blank page after installation. Many views, but no possible solutions offered. I can't say the same for PostNuke because I have NEVER had a problem whatsoever with any version of PostNuke, whether it was installed on a Linux or Windows server, so there for I have never had to ask an installation question. With MD-Pro, I DO have an installation problem with NO answer as of yet!
Duster - Sep 02, 2004 - 11:25 AM
Post subject:
I made no statement about getting help when it is needed. One cannot compare support as it varies with the question asked. There are questions I asked last year on the PostNuke forums that still have not been answered. I just chalked it up to no one knowing the answer. That can happen anywhere.

You asked about installing MDP under Windows and IIS rather than Apache. You later indicated a problem with a blank page. I'd suggest you do a search on blank pages as this issue has been addressed. Perhaps the solution for others applies in your case as well.
Speedman - Sep 03, 2004 - 05:24 AM
Post subject:
tsquezn,

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt but sometimes you need to figure things out for yourself. Not because you are being ignored but more likely because your problem can't be reproduced. For example, I have no agenda to make you miserable but I've never used IIs so I'd be clueless to offer a hand.

You could ask the same question about AOL server or Solaris and probably get the same response but that proves nothing. If PostNuke works so well for you, great! As for implying that Postnuke installs without a problem, a look at their forums tells a different story because there are plenty of people having installation problems with PostNuke. In fact, the PostNuke team seems to be having an installation problem of their own as postnuke.com is down as I write this!

My logic tells me your hyperbole belies the fact that you wouldn't be trying MDPro and so agitated about it not working for you if PostNuke were truly your panacea.

Speed
tsquez - Sep 03, 2004 - 09:58 AM
Post subject:
Speed,

No you didn’t come off as being blunt. But your comment “figure things out for yourself” was quite foolish needless to say.

My statement was directed to Duster about his comment on “Communication with the community.” I was simply stating that after I read his article, I found the Team to be “LACKING” in this department. PN does as well…..lol! If you are unable to provide help, then I do not expect you to, but if you are part of the TEAM then I do, and as of yet they haven’t. Telling someone to do search in the forums is not providing any kind of help, especially after the person has clearly stated they have looked and found nothing that helps. That is called “passing the buck.”

And if you read what I wrote correctly my statement said that “I” have never encountered any problems with a PN installation. I’m sure there are quite few individuals who have run into a problem or two. PN is not perfect and I never said it was.

In that regard, Post Nuke is my “panacea” as you so eloquently put it. I have no desire to use MD in a production environment. I simply want to use it to ensure that the themes I create for PN are compatible with it, in case a customer would like to purchase it and use it with MD. I have also installed PHP Nuke and CPG, both of which installed with no problemos either Laughing.

So you see, it is not that I find PN lacking and therefore looking to use MD. Quite the contrary. I would suggest in the future, instead of reading to much into what a person has written, you need to try and understand what they have said first. You come across as a somewhat intelligent individual, seeing as how you have a “penchant” for using big words…..lol (I prefer “ballyhoo” over “hyperbole” myself 8) )

So I leave you with this to consider: “Think before you speak, speak half of what you think.”

P.S. Duster, next time you try to write something that is free of "bias" look the word up and understand what it means. Your article is filled with bias.
Duster - Sep 03, 2004 - 11:13 AM
Post subject:
tsquez wrote:

My statement was directed to Duster about his comment on “Communication with the community.” I was simply stating that after I read his article, I found the Team to be “LACKING” in this department.
You clearly did not understand that part then. I was not referring to technical support. That is mosly peer to peer assistance and there is no way to objectively compare any sites in this regard.
Quote:

PN does as well…..lol! If you are unable to provide help, then I do not expect you to, but if you are part of the TEAM then I do, and as of yet they haven’t.
Your expectations are unrealistic. You are using Windows, which places you in a minority. You are further using the greatly flawed IIS, which puts you into an even smaller minority.
Quote:

Telling someone to do search in the forums is not providing any kind of help, especially after the person has clearly stated they have looked and found nothing that helps. That is called “passing the buck.”
You are unfairly characterizing the situation now. First, your problem was getting MDP installed under IIS. You made the comment that you found nothing specific about it in your search. You managed to do it anyway. Then your problem was a blank page. It was at that point that I suggested a search on "blank pages" and remarked that the solution to the problem others had might help you as well. I'm sorry for you that you don't consider that helpful but my knowledge of Windows as a server and IIS is very limited so there is nothing else I could add.

What I don't understand is why you were so reasonable in your post on your problem, seemingly accepting that you might have to deduce the answer on your own (and offering to share the solution with the community if found) and why you are so different here, doing nothing but complaining and spouting falsehoods? Did you get a burr under your saddle, did a bee sting you on your private parts while urinating outside, did you sit on a sea urchin or did something else put you in a bad and delusional mood?

In one respect, you remind me of my late mother. She would often break into a conversation saying "talking about x"and we would remind her that no one was talking about x. It was just her way of steering the conversation to what she wanted to talk about. You did the same thing with "well in regards to your statement about getting help when it is needed,". I made no such statement.

It was just your way of bringing attention to the lack of an answer and doing so in an inappropiate location.

There are some lines in the posting guidelines that apply here.

"Please understand that it's not that we are unwilling to help, it's that in some cases we are unable to help."

"Nobody owes you an answer. Giving thanks for assistance, whether your problem was resolved or not, is always welcome and appreciated. Be thankful for the effort even if the results are not what you wanted. Remember that when people try to help you, they are doing you a favor."
Quote:

So I leave you with this to consider: “Think before you speak, speak half of what you think.”

You might want to practice what you advocate.
Quote:

P.S. Duster, next time you try to write something that is free of "bias" look the word up and understand what it means. Your article is filled with bias.

I'd suggest you look up "subjective". There is some bias in the part labeled Subjective. Almost everything else above that merely asks questions so it cannot reasonably be construed as biased. The listing of features and unneeded hacks is completely accurate and bias is not a factor there either, especially as I make no comments on the value of those features,letting each viewer make those determinations for themselves.

I'm sorry for you that you haven't found an answer to your particular problem yet. That is still no reason to bring your gripes about it to this discussion. Nothing you have said here relates to what I posted here.
PeteBest - Sep 03, 2004 - 11:49 AM
Post subject:
tsquez,

I think the post that Duster was referring to you to search on is probably THIS one, which covers just about every reasonable fix for blank screens that aren't purely related to server setup issues.

I'm sure that if you've tried all the suggestions within that topic you'll be up and running reasonably fast
tsquez - Sep 04, 2004 - 02:47 AM
Post subject:
Yes i read that thread and tried everything there and nothing seemed to work, which leads me to believe it has something to do with IIS itself. What I actually did was use easyphp and installed it locally (prolly better for theme testing anyway) and it worked with no problemes whatsoever. So thnx anyway for the help guys and I do appreciate the effort. Please do not get me wrong, I think MD is a fine CMS and might use it on a few sites and may even switch over to it on my site, maybe....lol. So keep up the good work guys and if your looking for any themes, give me a holla!
Nixon68 - Sep 05, 2004 - 09:37 PM
Post subject:
You chose to compare Postnuke 726 with the latest MD-Pro-version in a time when Postnuke .750 was already available in a well developed release candidate which offered a number of great new features. Most of them are related to the Xanthia Templating Engine which is as you already pointed out is Smarty-based.

That means that the templating engine is developed by the Smarty project. Together with Xanthia, Typetool, ADODB an phpMailer there are several projects included into Postnuke that are steadily developed by third party developers. The core team can concentrate on Postnuke itself.

Xanthia is the superior templating system because it can and will be used in all modules. So the admin is not dependend on the layout some developer designed. He can adjust everything to his own needs and can even include personal addons without hacking files only by smarty plugins and it also supports short URLs.

MDPro does not offer anything like Pagesetter. Pagesetter is a flexible meta-module that anables the admin to point&click types of publications, design the output via simple HTML and Smarty and can even implement workflows the way he wants. Together with Smarty Plugins and Postnuke this is a mighty combination.

Check out my testing site: http://v088405.dd1724.kasserver.com/gis/

It you click on "Das Team" you see a list of Pagesetter items together with images stored in the Photoshare gallery. If you click on the names of the first 3 persons you get the details. That is again the name from the Pagesetter publication, the image from Photoshare and the address that is fetched by my personal module pnInternutz that in turned gets the data directly from the XML-output of our universities information system, included in the pagesetter item via Smarty Plugin.

Now explain how you do that in MDPro.

MDPro is a nice packet for admins how don't want to know much about the underlying system. They want a running system and a few colorful themes. Postnuke aims more at the professional segment. That doesn't mean that it doesn't run the way I described for MDPro but it has a bigger potential for professionals.

And I don't understand why MDPro-Devs decided not to contribute their knowledge to Postnuke development.
TiMax - Sep 06, 2004 - 06:00 AM
Post subject:
Only to add a couple of my cents.

Nixon68 wrote:

Xanthia is the superior templating system because it can and will be used in all modules. So the admin is not dependend on the layout some developer designed. He can adjust everything to his own needs and can even include personal addons without hacking files only by smarty plugins and it also supports short URLs.


Maybe before you talk you need to check in credits where Xanthia comes from and who have developed Xanthia, Nomoreblocks, Visualblock or like PN call now control block etc. all of these thing come from Envolution (before) 1.2.5 development and majority of MAXdev staff come from Envolution
Maybe you can suppose that we all, over 50 developers, have our own good reasons to abandon development of Encompass/Xanthia/Smarty/Nomoreblocks/Visualblocks etc ...

Maybe read also about the author of PN's short url


Nixon68 wrote:

MDPro does not offer anything like Pagesetter. Pagesetter is a flexible meta-module that anables the admin to point&click types of publications, design the output via simple HTML and Smarty and can even implement workflows the way he wants. Together with Smarty Plugins and Postnuke this is a mighty combination.


Who says that ?
Personally, I don't like pagesetter and the way it works, but if someone wants pagesetter in Postnuke he just needs to install it, and the same thing in MD-Pro, if you want pagesetter just install it Smile

Nixon68 wrote:


Check out my testing site: http://v088405.dd1724.kasserver.com/gis/

It you click on "Das Team" you see a list of Pagesetter items together with images stored in the Photoshare gallery. If you click on the names of the first 3 persons you get the details. That is again the name from the Pagesetter publication, the image from Photoshare and the address that is fetched by my personal module pnInternutz that in turned gets the data directly from the XML-output of our universities information system, included in the pagesetter item via Smarty Plugin.

Now explain how you do that in MDPro.


Just install pagesetter, photoshare and, if you want to share it, your pnInternutz module too Smile

Nixon68 wrote:

MDPro is a nice packet for admins how don't want to know much about the underlying system. They want a running system and a few colorful themes. Postnuke aims more at the professional segment. That doesn't mean that it doesn't run the way I described for MDPro but it has a bigger potential for professionals.


heheh I m not sure about that, and maybe soon you will see some surprises

Nixon68 wrote:

And I don't understand why MDPro-Devs decided not to contribute their knowledge to Postnuke development.


Maybe you need to ask that to PN leaders man, before leaving Envolution and before starting MAXdev project I ask several times to join Envolution and Postnuke development, also in public forum, I say also I was tired and if we join I don't want to be project manager, so I not ask to join for my interest but for community interest, but ..... sometimes they not answer and sometimes they answer " no thanks we already taken all we need from Envolution "

So, now I ask, I don't understand why PostNuke dev's decided not to contribute their knowledge to MD-Pro development. Smile
Duster - Sep 06, 2004 - 07:06 AM
Post subject:
Nixon68 wrote:
You chose to compare Postnuke 726 with the latest MD-Pro-version in a time when Postnuke .750 was already available in a well developed release candidate which offered a number of great new features.
Yes, I did, and for a very good reason. I am not familiar with PN .750 nor will I be.

Quote:
Xanthia is the superior templating system because it can and will be used in all modules.
I believe the same can be said about AutoTheme. AutoTheme also has many features that Xanthia does not. At any rate, AutoTheme is easier to use. All that makes it superior to Xanthia in my view (not to mention the wide availablility of AT themes).
Quote:

MD Pro does not offer anything like Pagesetter.
I believe Pagesetter is a third party module which invalidates your statement as third party modules and hacks were clearly excluded in this comparison. Besides, it could be installed in MD Pro just as it could in PN.

Quote:

Postnuke aims more at the professional segment. That doesn't mean that it doesn't run the way I described for MDPro but it has a bigger potential for professionals.
Hahahahahhahahhahahhha. You are so wrong. What do you base your deluded comments on? MD-Pro is already used in many professional applications. In fact, many of the developers use it in that manner. That's where the Pro in MD-Pro comes from. Planned changes will tailor it even more, not just for professional use, but for any use without imposing things of no interest to each admin.

The atmosphere of any organization starts at the top. The PN organization is ill suited for decent and responsible management, much less professional application. Maxdev has an atmosphere conducive to cooperation and getting things done rather than creating obstacles and dampening enthusiasm of volunteers until they lose it altogether. Things get done and many get done quite rapidly, as quickly as a few minutes.
Quote:

And I don't understand why MDPro-Devs decided not to contribute their knowledge to Postnuke development.
You've already gotten an answer back to the forking days. I can say I'm glad Maxdev is a separate project. It has a far better management style and a better product.

Ask yourself why Maxdev has so many more programmers than PostNuke does? Why do more programmers join Maxdev rather than PN?

If you are able to remove your rose colored glassed and set aside your cheerleader pompoms, you will see the truth and the error of your beliefs. You don't have to though and are welcome to continue being deluded, only not here.The bright light of truth will be shone on your clouded fallacious beliefs.

MD Pro has manpower and momentum that PostNuke can't possibly match.The results of that will be more evident in the months ahead.
Nixon68 - Sep 06, 2004 - 08:56 AM
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I didn't claim Xanthia as an original Postnuke idea - but AFAIK the current state of XTE in the meantime has become a complete rewrite of the eNvolution code. But now it's really becoming splitting hairs. As I already said: Postnuke developement joins the best of other os projects.

Perhaps you might give some convincing reasons for inventing the wheel anew with a self-coded theming engine when there are existing solutions aorund? What is easier in Autotheme and what does it offer extra that XTE can't do?

There are 2 modules available for the conversion of Autothemes and classic themes into XTE-Themes - And it works with most themes that I tried. So there are as many Xanthia themes as MD-Pro themes.

I know there isn't a real roadmap for Postnuke but is there one for MD-Pro? What is the future of MD-Pro? Including more and more features? Or is there an option for something like what Postnuke .8 is supposed to be? A complete abstraction of core and modules.

AFAIK understand MD-Pro it started as a distribution of Postnuke that included several hacks and 3rd party modules - a package that gets bigger and bigger. Postnuke .8 will be the opposite: a lean core with all the basic layer of db abstraction, API, templating, permissions, security hook aso. The core modules will mostly be show cases of what Postnuke can do. I'm sure Pagesetter + pnMedia will become something like the must-have of every webmaster and it will include some of the most common applications pre-configured.

Is there some kind of comparable vision for MD Pro as well - I really am intered in that. I didn't ask that for provocation. I didn't follow MD-Pro's history.

BTW: I don't really like the religions tone of your last paragraph - I expected a discussion and not the Spanish inquisition!?
Duster - Sep 06, 2004 - 09:18 AM
Post subject:
Nixon68 wrote:
What is easier in Autotheme and what does it offer extra that XTE can't do?
It's easy enough to read about them if you have a mind to.
Quote:

There are 2 modules available for the conversion of Autothemes and classic themes into XTE-Themes - And it works with most themes that I tried. So there are as many Xanthia themes as MD-Pro themes.
No there aren't. You're playing word games now. There are more native themes for MD-Pro, those that don't require conversion.
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I know there isn't a real roadmap for Postnuke but is there one for MD-Pro? What is the future of MD-Pro?
Yes and it is posted on the site.
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AFAIK understand MD-Pro it started as a distribution of Postnuke that included several hacks and 3rd party modules
You are mistaken,. You could read the history of MD-Pro and clear up your misconceptions.You wil find it presently under the installation guide but that will change in the near future.
Quote:

- a package that gets bigger and bigger. Postnuke .8 will be the opposite: a lean core with all the basic layer of db abstraction, API, templating, permissions, security hook aso.
Baloney. It is MD-Pro that will have the leanest core. Everything but the bare essentials will be made an optional add-on.
Quote:

Is there some kind of comparable vision for MD Pro as well - I really am intered in that. I didn't ask that for provocation. I didn't follow MD-Pro's history.
Again, you have only to read it.
Quote:

BTW: I don't really like the religions tone of your last paragraph - I expected a discussion and not the Spanish inquisition!?

You really should see a doctor about your delusions. Max's last paragraph was "So, now i ask, i don't understand why PostNuke dev's decided not to contribute their knowledge to MD-Pro development." Mine was "MD Pro has manpower and momentum that PostNuke can't possibly match. The results of that will be more evident in the months ahead."

There is nothing remotely like an inquisition, Spanish or otherwise, in anything that was said. You are solely responsible for anything you add in your misinterpretation. I deal only with facts and the truth.
GlueBeard - Sep 06, 2004 - 01:05 PM
Post subject: Re: Why Choose MD Pro Over PostNuke
Duster wrote:
For this comparison, we will use the MD Pro 1.07 RC1 and PostNuke 0.726 releases. These are the two versions the author of this article (Duster) is familiar with. Further, only the official packages are used in this comparison. Hacks and third party resources are not considered for either program. The purpose of this comparison is to determine which is the better choice as it comes distributed. For many people, better will mean the easiest choice to both install and administer.


As one who presently uses PostNuke 0.726, and as one who is fairly new to being a web master, I would like to comment on this article/posting.

When I initially tried to install PostNuke, I did not find it to be user friendly to install. I eventually paid someone to install it for me, and later on, when I transferred to a new web host, I used the Fantastico control panel to install it for me automatically.

That said, no analysis of PostNuke as a Content Management System would be replete without analysis that takes into the range and variety of 3rd party modules and blocks available for it.

Furthermore, even if another CMS is easier to install, that is only one small part of the overall CMS equation, baed upon my own experience over the last several months in working with PostNuke.

Simply testing and comparing PostNuke and MD-Pro in their core versions, while perhaps helpful to a degree, is nonetheless a very limited way to compare the products. If one can't get PostNuke installed, then it is worthless to the prospective web master. But, once they get it installed, the analysis of the web master will only be in its infancy stage, since, in all likelihood, that new web master will eventually begin looking at 3rd party add-ons.


Duster wrote:
A program is only as good as the people behind it.


Many times, very competent people produce very inept products. Other times, the supposed "better" team doesn't always produce the better product.

Duster wrote:
Compare the two websites. Look up comments on this subject on the PN forums. Look up the same thing on MDP's site. Which do you feel places a greater importance on communicating with its community, including the end users, on a regular basis? Do you know who the project manager is for each CMS? How often do they communicate with the community?


I know who runs Microsoft, but that doesn't make me feel any better about Windows. Likewise, knowing who the project manager for a project really tells me nothing about the quality of the end product.

Personally, when I need an answer to a question, it really matters very little where or who that answer comes from. I have found the PostNuke community to be pretty good at providing me those answers.


[quote="Duster"]Which tells you of its history?

The history of the product is unlikely to have much bearing with me, on an individual and personal basis, where either PostNuke or MD-Pro are concerned.

Duster wrote:
Compare documentation for the two programs. Which do you feel is more abundant and better able to help you with your concerns as a beginner? Is the documentation for either program adequate in addressing your installation and usage questions? Is there an ongoing effort to add to it and improve it?


Having posted only a cople of days ago in the PostNuke.com forums about the need for a forum dedictade solely to documentation, I can certainly state without reservation that, based upon my own experience, thus far, documentation is the redheaded stepchild of PostNuke. More often than not, I have found the documentation to be deficient, but this extends beyond just the core product files. This is not to say, however, that I consider MD-Pro's documentation to be better. I haven't tried MD-Pro, so I can't really say what its documentation is like.

Duster wrote:
How easy can you find your way around the respective sites? Is the site cluttered? Can you find documentation easily? Can you find third party blocks and modules easily? Do you spend more time looking than finding?


If I judge them by their respective front pages of both sites, I would rate the PostNuke.com site as being easier to navigate. I am looking at both sites' front pages right now in separate windows, and MD-Pro's front page is more cluttered. PostNuke's site makes better use of distinctive colors to provide a visual breakdown of modules, blocks, security, themes, etc., whereas the www.maxdev.com site (which is what I am referring to when I refer to MD-Pro's site - correct me if I am wrong) is more focused on making announcements than on making navigation better for me, the end user/visitor of the site.

Duster wrote:
How long does it take for the next release? How long does it take for good suggestions to be added?


I have been using PostNuke long enough to address this one.

Duster wrote:
Is there a projected next release date? Do the developers have a good record of keeping their projections? Is the next release weeks away or years?


A projected release date is nothing more than a target date, but all-too-often with many software companies, projected release dates are missed. Projected release dates mean nothing to me, individually and personally, since they aren't anything written in stone. The developers could be killed in an automobile accident or sometheing, and a project might never reach fruitition.


Duster wrote:
Do you know what features will be in the next version? Has there been any feedback on previously suggested features and any indication if they will be included? Are feature suggestions just generally ignored or commented on with no indication of future inclusion?


I am still trying to figure out PostNuke 0.726, so I have am not able to comment on the current version of PostNuke, which I think is 0.750. I haven't decided, yet, if I am going to switch to 0.750 or not.

Duster wrote:
How many active developers are there for each CMS? The answer to this one may surprise you and teach you a lesson about making assumptions based on appearances.


Well, since you did not bother to provide the answer, I am unable to answer that question. That said, having more developers speaks more to quantity of personnel than to quality of product, necessarily. Having more people does not always translate into better efficiency or more productivity. If that were the case, the People's Republic of China would be the most developed nation in the world, since it has more people to work with. Additionally, within any given organization, there are often instances of disproportionate productivity, when various individuals are compared to one another.

If you know the answer to the question, though, then you should have provided the respective numbers of developers for both PostNuke and MD-Pro. Otherwise, you are merely engaged in an exercise of oratorical sabre-rattling.


Duster wrote:
Only MDP has the following features and refinement. PN does not[list] The ephemerid block does not show on days with no ephemerid

Ephemerids are sorted by month, date and year and displayed in that manner (to the admin)


I don't use the Ephemerids, so this item holds no relevancy for me on an individual and personal basis.


Duster wrote:
The user points feature is included


This is not included with PostNuke 0.726, though there is an add-on for it. However, the add-on I have tried more than once, and still find it to be deficient. I believe that progress for that item for the add-on is still ongoing, though.

Duster wrote:
Moderated registration is possible


I am not sure what you mean by "moderated registration." I do not find PostNuke's registration process to be unduly burdensome, though.

Duster wrote:
MDP is search engine friendly. You can customize page names and descriptions for your entire site.


That is merely a statement of personal opinion. I know that this item is a big concern for many web masters, and rightly so, buy for myself, it is not a crucial item. The number of users for my site is not really a concern for me. I do recognize, however, that this is a big consideration for many, if not most, web masters. I use myw eb site primarily as a test bed for me to learn with.

Duster wrote:
MDP allows for customizable meta tags for each page


Being new to being a web master, absent an explanation in your analysis, your statement simply falls with no impact. If you seek to persuade people to go with MD-Pro, instead of PostNuke, your comparisons are not written with the new web master in mind.

Duster wrote:
MDP comes with built in short URL support (with a choice of extensions){/url]


Msanderson, from the PostNuke.com website comes to mind. Short or long URLs are not an issue with me, personally. I have browsed some of msanderson's postings before, in which he has spoken about short URL's.

Duster wrote:
Admin section has option of all sections together or separated by tabs


Well, again, if you had expounded upon it in your initial comparison, your comparison might have more impact. As stated, it means nothing to me, since I don't know what you are referring to.

[quote="Duster"]News module can have multiple pages and columns.

Well, there is no reason that PostNuke sites can't have multiple pages with news on them. Flexibility in display options is of more concern to me as a web master than sheer quantity of pages which the core news module can have.

Duster wrote:
Dynamic menu with multiple levels


I have played with a number of different menu systems for my site. A variety of DHTML menus work with PostNuke 0.726, based upon my own prior experimentations with my site over the last few months.

Duster wrote:
Compare Subjects (MDP) to Sections (PN). The former allows you to enter search engine terms on the same screen where you enter an article. The latter is oblivious to search engines. Furthermore, it allows you to separate articles into multiple pages. Which would you rather use?p


Well, not all web masters have the same needs or tastes in these areas. More options can offer greater flexibility, but simultaneously, more options can also often add to confusion for those new to the whole thing.

Duster wrote:
MDP has built in database support and is shown on the admin menu because regular backups are important and we understand the concept of "out of sight out of mind". We think regular backups are so important that you should be able to perform them from within your CMS. How does PN handle db backups? Are external programs such as phpMyAdmin necessary?


Well, it's a one click thing from my web host's control panel, as far as I know. What database options does MD-Pro's database provide to the web master, other than in the area of backing up their site?

Duster wrote:
MDP uses the popular HTML based AutoTheme program for its theme engine, although all types of themes are supported. There are hundreds of themes available for it. If you know it already, you don't have to learn something new. Since it is HTML based, it is easier to use than other systems and you can use Dreamweaver and other popular HTML editors to create and modify your themes.


Well, having recently commented in the PostNuke forums about how I do not use AutoThemes, this lacks persuasion to get me to switch to MD-Pro. If one does not wish to use Auto-Themes, what other options are available for theme, where themes are concerned, for MD-Pro?

Duster wrote:
Speaking of themes, MDP includes logo blanks so you may rapidly replace our logo with yours and make use of existing themes within minutes. Can that be said of PN's themes?


It isn't difficult now, and wasn't when I was just beginning, to swap out PostNuke logos for ones that I created in a graphics program. I eliminated the PostNuke logos on my site early on, though. Is there any problem with eliminating the MD-Pro logos, since those type logos are amongst the most unattractive of things, where aesthetics are concerned, for CMS sites that I visit.


Duster wrote:
MDP has a more refined look which makes data entry easier.


That is simply a statement of opinion. What constitutes a "refined look?" You didn't say. One man's garbage is another man's treasure, and vice versa.

Duster wrote:
The refinement doesn't stop there though. We are examining every part of MDP and how it functions to eliminate confusion and deficiencies passed on from parent sources PostNuke and Envolution. This is why our ephemerids block functions properly, and why you will see many refinements in MDP that you will not find elsewhere.


Again, I don't use ephemerids, so it is irrelevant to me, personally, though perhaps not to those who use ephemerids. Your choice of wording, however, leaves one questioning whether MD-Pro is so great, after all, if, as you state, it has confusion and deficiencies passed on from parent sources PostNuke and Envolution. You fail to state what those specific confusions or deficiencies are, so there is no way to ascertain the veracity of the statement.

Duster wrote:
Using a concept named zero based functionality, we examine how every part of MDP should work and then go about making sure it works that way. We pay attention to small details as well as major functions.


If that is the case, then why does MD-Pro still contain confusion and deficiencies from parent sources?

Duster wrote:
Doing little things well leads to doing bigger things better.


Attention-to-detail is, indeed, an important part of product development.

Duster wrote:
Look at the modules section of the two. The MDP modules section more easily conveys the status of the module, whether it is active, disabled or not initialized.


I have never had a problem understanding whether a module on my PostNuke site is active, disabled, or not initialized.

Duster wrote:
PN Hacks I DON'T need with MD-Pro
[list]
Title Hack, which allows module titles to be displayed in the browser title area


I don't use Title Hack.

Duster wrote:
pnMeta to allow editing of meta keyword tags for each module


I don't use pnMeta.

Duster wrote:
pncUserHack to moderate user registration (very helpful at thwarting spammers from registering).


I don't use pncUserHack, as fara s I know, since no one has added any modules buy myself.

Duster wrote:
A simple editing hack to the login/registration block to make login information more direct and straighforward.


Well, I hacked some files manually to reword certain text displays. More direct and straightforward, inw hat way or ways? You fail to say.

Duster wrote:
A hack to make Web Links balanced (it allows specifying the number of subcategory levels to be specified).


Not a concern for me, though I will say that PostNuke's Web Links module leaves a lot to be desired. If you add a link, it does not take you to the previous page you were on. It is a very tedious and cumbersome process to add a lot of links at one time, using PostNuke 0.726. I do not know how it is in PostNuke 0.750.

Duster wrote:
Another hack to Web Links that enables a different folder icon to be used for the subcategories, creating a greater visual distinction between category and subcategory.


That would be a plus. But, I have not played with teh web links module a lot, yet, where PostNuke is cocnerned.

Duster wrote:
Another hack to Web Links that requests a reciprocal link of anyone placing a link.


For those sites that use reciprocal links, this would be beneficial.

Duster wrote:
A hack to add subcategories to Sections


I dislike PostNuke's Articles/Categories/Topics framework. Here, are you referring to sections for web links modules? It is difficult to follow your posting, when specificity is lacking.

Duster wrote:
A hack to prevent the ephemerids block from being displayed on days for which there are no ephemerids


Again, not relevent for me, personally, since I don't use ephemerids.

Duster wrote:
Another hack to ephemerids to have the dates sorted by month and day and then year in the admin section


A lot of focus on ephemerids, but one can have an ephemerids function without either an ephemerids module in either PostNuke or MD-Pro.

Duster wrote:
The main menu has been organized and titles changed to make it more user friendly and intelligible.


I certainly cannot tellt hat by looking at the www.maxdev.com home page.

Duster wrote:
A hack to the main menu to make long listings line up below the first line.


Line up in what way?

Duster wrote:
The future of MDP is smaller than PN's, while larger at the same time. MDP 1.1 will have a smaller, leaner core. Only components considered essential for most any site will be included in its core. All the remaining modules and blocks will be optional add-ons during the installation process or later. This will include such features as ephemerids, quotes and many others. This will make it easier for people who install MDP for the first time as they won't have a lot of unused features to disable and delete.


Making it easier to install and get started is a plus for any CMS. I can't speak for MD-Pro one way or the other, but PostNuke certainly has lots of room for improvement in this area.

Duster wrote:
It will be much like installing Linux where you choose what you want installed. Even for the modules you do want to install, you will be able to choose from any on the same subject. Some site admins will require only lightly featured modules while others will prefer more robust modules for commercial purposes.


I have never installed Linux, so that tells me nothing.

Duster wrote:
Our add-ons though, will carry the same commitment to make them the best that the core modules have. They will also enjoy the benefit of support as our core modules do. Note that this does not apply to third party add-ons.


Well, the 3rd party add-ons for various CMSs are what excite me more than the core modules offered by any CMS that I have looked at, so far.

Duster wrote:
We are in the process of setting up the MaxDev Association, a not-for profit organization to secure the future of MD- Pro. All assets of the Maxdev Project will be transferred to it and it will oversee global marketing and several other activities.


And what will be the formulae for transparency that the organization will be imbued with? How, exactly, will this MaxDev Association secure the future of MD-Pro? Lacking specifics, this doesn't really say anything other than that some amorphous group will be created. What will be the structure and organizational composition of the association in question?

Duster wrote:
Of course, it helps to have over fifty developers in various countries also, with more joining our team periodically. MDP is not dependent on the efforts of a very small number of developers whose departure or loss could stall, cripple or halt development altogether.


That, in and of itself, tells me nothing. First, you didn't list any of the developers, so it is just a number. Second, having looked at some of the work of 3rd party developers for PostNuke, for example, that one is a developer, in and of itself, says nothing to me. That they are in various countries raises the potential for communication problems within the development core.

Furthermore, if the intent is to frame the PostNuke development community in a bad light, then I think that that would be an unfair characterization. My own impression of the PostNuke community, both developers and beyond, is that PostNuke is a very viable product, with an enthusiastic and commited development core.

People can always die. But, people can be replaced. Just because Albert Einsteind died, the world was not left without any geniuses amongst us.

Duster wrote:
PN has chosen to incorporate pnRender ( a version of Smarty) in future releases of PN. This can cause incompatibility with many modules. Check their forums for more on this.


I recently inquired about Smarty in the PostNuke forums. Incompatibility with existing modules is, of concern, a very real concern that I, as a web master have. Simultaneously, though, you fail to state what the potential advantages of incorporating Smarty into the PostNuke development strategy might be. As such, your comparison is not balanced, where this particular item is concerned.

Duster wrote:
PN may look bigger but MDP has many more developers. PN has a few, but most of the work is done by just one developer, Mark West.


Well, on a purely personal level, it matters little to me whether one person or one thousand drive a given effort. I am interested in the end results than in who can lay claim to credit for it. If MD-Pro has so many developers, list them. Absent a list of 50 names, one cannot verify that there are 50 developers to begin with. If MD-Pro is more oriented towards an enhanced communication philosophy, then, to me at least, listing each of the core developers and providing a contact point for them, such as e-mail addresses, should be provided upfront. Otherwise, web masters like myself are left in the dark as to who they are. or whether they exist at all.

Duster wrote:
Consequently, MDP is advanced faster than PN. MDP is a multi national collaboration with multiple sites (more than a dozen). That gives it built in redundancy and backup. PN is centralized with all functions controlled from one site. it has all it eggs in one basket. PN .8 will be using the Xanthia templating engine because a PN developer lost their intended Phoenix rendering engine in a hard drive crash. He had no backup for it.


Well, if this is true, then it certainly would explain something to me about why the transition to Xanthia was made. However, if PostNuke developers do not perform or retain backup copies of their site or core material for PostNuke, then it certainly raises eyebrows as to suggestions to PostNuke.com site users that they should backup their sites.

That said, even if it did happen as you outlined above, perhaps they learned their lesson. I have seen mixed reviews of Xanthia. I haven't tried it, yet, so I can't speak to its pluses or minuses either way.

Duster wrote:
MD Pro is a more refined and polished product than PostNuke (that's less subjective though than you might think). A long list of hacks and other improvements was not needed with MDP. Most were already included. It only took suggesting the remaining ones to have them added as well. The differences between MDP and other CMS will grow considerably and the gap between them will widen to a chasm. We have an imaginative and very responsive group of developers and it's a real pleasure (not to mention a lot of fun) working with them.


Stating that MD-Pro is, and I quote, "a more refined and polished product than PostNuke," is entirely subjective, especially when you fail to specifically define what constitutes the basis for establishing something as refined. The differemces that you list, even if accepted at face value, does not automatically translate into PostNuke lacking refinement.

That something is a "hack" is not necessarily a bad thing. I change my theme by "hacking" it. Not all hacks are hatchet jobs.

You state that the differences between MDP and other CMSs will grow considerably and that the gap between them will widen to a chasm. This is nothing more than speculation and conjecture on your part. That may be a desired objective, but at this stage, it is simply speculation.

You may, indeed, have a very imaginative and responsive group of developers, but even if that is true, your group and the individuals which comprise it hold no monopoly on imagination and responsiveness. If, however, you merely wish to imply that PostNuke's developers lack imagination and responsiveness, I would not concur with such a conclusion.

Duster wrote:
As an admin, I like the fact that MDP has built in search engine friendly features and I don't have to add third party hacks to address this severe shortcoming. I like that it has the capability for moderated registration now. It's a feature I need. I had just gotten through adding pncUserPoints to my last PN site when I moved to MDP and discovered they too were built in. I like the fact that the people behind MD Pro think of al these details and how their product will be used in the real world. Unlike PN, there is nothing in MD Pro I need to fix.


I know someone who has very recently started experimenting with MD-Pro, so I will be sure to inquire of him as to whether he agrees with your assertion that there is nothing in MD-Pro now that needs fixing.

Duster wrote:
If you are still using PN, you should give some serious thought to changing to MD Pro, or just do it. You'll be glad you did and that's an understatement.


I don't mind considering switching. Your article/posting, however, lacks persuasive power to convince me to switch. You should expound upon the strong points of MD-Pro, if possible and where possible, and try to do so with newbies to Content Management Systems and web mastering in mind.

Duster wrote:
Programs fork for many reasons. Often, emphasis is on the code, which explains why so many deficiencies are passed on from one Nuke fork to another and nothing is done about them. Many developers don't think of how a module or block functions. They only think of how it is coded. At MD Pro, we have taken a different path. While our programmers are optimizing the code, they are also improving the functionality of all the parts and make them function as they should. We have an imaginative and highly responsive group of developers. They strive for excellence on a continual basis. Some improvements are made in as little as a few minutes. We employ the talents of many people, from programmers to document writers, wherever they live in the world. Their combined efforts can be found in an excellent product destined to be even better. We invite you to install MD Pro and see for yourself.


I would be especially intersted in hearing about MD-Pro, as it provides flexibility to the web master who does not desire to use AutoThemes.

I would also be interested in learning how MD-Pro's core development team will enable theme designers to have more control over the output and display of specific information which is output by various modules and blocks, as distinguished from the entireity of information output by such modules and blocks.
Duster - Sep 06, 2004 - 03:15 PM
Post subject: Re: Why Choose MD Pro Over PostNuke
Thank you for your response. While it is mostly neutral or non applicable, it does demonstrate the purpose of my post, to ask questions and let each person find the answers and determine the value of them. Some people care about things like short URLs, and search engine friendliness and others, like you, do not.
Quote:

That said, no analysis of PostNuke as a Content Management System would be replete without analysis that takes into the range and variety of 3rd party modules and blocks available for it.
This is not applicable . For one thing, this is not an analysis of PostNuke. For another, modules that are PN .726 compatible are also MD-Pro compatible.

Quote:

If I judge them by their respective front pages of both sites, I would rate the PostNuke.com site as being easier to navigate. I am looking at both sites' front pages right now in separate windows, and MD-Pro's front page is more cluttered. PostNuke's site makes better use of distinctive colors to provide a visual breakdown of modules, blocks, security, themes, etc., whereas the www.maxdev.com site (which is what I am referring to when I refer to MD-Pro's site - correct me if I am wrong) is more focused on making announcements than on making navigation better for me, the end user/visitor of the site.
Click on Main page and see if your opinion changes.

Duster wrote:
How long does it take for the next release? How long does it take for good suggestions to be added?

Quote:

A projected release date is nothing more than a target date, but all-too-often with many software companies, projected release dates are missed. Projected release dates mean nothing to me, individually and personally, since they aren't anything written in stone. The developers could be killed in an automobile accident or sometheing, and a project might never reach fruitition.
I've said much the same thing but there is another side to the issue. You will find it in discussions on PN's site. Incidentally, they did lose one of their programmers to death by motorcycle accident a bit over a year ago. You can find that too.
Quote:

If you know the answer to the question, though, then you should have provided the respective numbers of developers for both PostNuke and MD-Pro. Otherwise, you are merely engaged in an exercise of oratorical sabre-rattling.
Again, you missed the point,it is not about giving answers and opinions but asking questions and letting each person find the answers and determine the importance of them.

Duster wrote:
MDP is search engine friendly. You can customize page names and descriptions for your entire site.

Quote:

That is merely a statement of personal opinion.
You are gravely mistaken. It is not opinion at all. It is a matter of verifiable fact.

Quote:
I know that this item is a big concern for many web masters, and rightly so, but [sic]for myself, it is not a crucial item. The number of users for my site is not really a concern for me. I do recognize, however, that this is a big consideration for many, if not most, web masters. I use my web site primarily as a test bed for me to learn with.

If you were using a CMS for an operational site, you might care more about some of these things. That not being the case, nothing you said here has any relevance. At least you do understand why these are important to many people.

Quote:
Being new to being a web master, absent an explanation in your analysis, your statement simply falls with no impact. If you seek to persuade people to go with MD-Pro, instead of PostNuke, your comparisons are not written with the new web master in mind.
You are correct in that it is not my intent to teach people what meta tags are. Google can help you with that.

Quote:

Well, there is no reason that PostNuke sites can't have multiple pages with news on them. Flexibility in display options is of more concern to me as a web master than sheer quantity of pages which the core news module can have.
You misunderstood the functioning of this. It refers to the text of news items being able to be split into multiple pages.

Quote:

I have played with a number of different menu systems for my site. A variety of DHTML menus work with PostNuke 0.726, based upon my own prior experimentations with my site over the last few months.
Again you miss the point. No third party add-ons are considered in this post.

Quote:

If one does not wish to use Auto-Themes, what other options are available for theme, where themes are concerned, for MD-Pro?
MD-Pro supports other theme types, including the PN classic theme (where the entire theme is in the theme.php file)

Duster wrote:
Speaking of themes, MDP includes logo blanks so you may rapidly replace our logo with yours and make use of existing themes within minutes. Can that be said of PN's themes?


Quote:
Is there any problem with eliminating the MD-Pro logos, since those type logos are amongst the most unattractive of things, where aesthetics are concerned, for CMS sites that I visit.
Of course not, That's why the logo blanks are provided.


Duster wrote:
MDP has a more refined look which makes data entry easier.


That is simply a statement of opinion. What constitutes a "refined look?" You didn't say. One man's garbage is another man's treasure, and vice versa. [/quote]Here's one example for you. Compare the adding links section of each CMS. The different part of the PN page run together so closely that it is confusing which part of it to use. The MDP page makes a greater distinction and Add a link is not confused with other parts.

Quote:

Again, I don't use ephemerids, so it is irrelevant to me,
You missed the point that it is representative of the attention to detail.

Quote:
Your choice of wording, however, leaves one questioning whether MD-Pro is so great, after all, if, as you state, it has confusion and deficiencies passed on from parent sources PostNuke and Envolution. You fail to state what those specific confusions or deficiencies are, so there is no way to ascertain the veracity of the statement.
Install both programs if you want to learn what those differences are. I'm only providing some questions, not providing answers.

Duster wrote:
Using a concept named zero based functionality, we examine how every part of MDP should work and then go about making sure it works that way. We pay attention to small details as well as major functions.


Quote:
If that is the case, then why does MD-Pro still contain confusion and deficiencies from parent sources?
Because refining it and improving it is an ongoing process and there are lots of parts to a CMS.

Duster wrote:
Doing little things well leads to doing bigger things better.


Quote:
Attention-to-detail is, indeed, an important part of product development.

Indeed.
Quote:

I dislike PostNuke's Articles/Categories/Topics framework. Here, are you referring to sections for web links modules? It is difficult to follow your posting, when specificity is lacking.
Just pay attention and it's easy. I said Sections.With a capital S. That makes it a module. See the Sections module in PN.
Duster wrote:
The main menu has been organized and titles changed to make it more user friendly and intelligible.

Quote:

I certainly cannot tellt hat by looking at the www.maxdev.com home page.
In the program, not on the site

Duster wrote:
A hack to the main menu to make long listings line up below the first line.

Quote:

Line up in what way?
Do a search for a hack by nate02631 on the subect of menu alignment for your answer

Duster wrote:
It will be much like installing Linux where you choose what you want installed. Even for the modules you do want to install, you will be able to choose from any on the same subject. Some site admins will require only lightly featured modules while others will prefer more robust modules for commercial purposes.

Quote:

I have never installed Linux, so that tells me nothing.
Use a smidgeon of imagination. It is about choice, not the OS (operating system). I would have used Windows except that it doesn't give you much of a choice and it will install some things even if you elected not to install them. It will also force some things on you even if you have no intent to use them

Quote:

Well, the 3rd party add-ons for various CMSs are what excite me more than the core modules offered by any CMS that I have looked at, so far.
Of course, The CMS is just the framework for the various modules we add to it

Duster wrote:
We are in the process of setting up the MaxDev Association, a not-for profit organization to secure the future of MD- Pro. All assets of the Maxdev Project will be transferred to it and it will oversee global marketing and several other activities.

Quote:

How, exactly, will this MaxDev Association secure the future of MD-Pro?
Some details have already been given. Others will be released when the association has been finalized.
Quote:

First, you didn't list any of the developers, so it is just a number.
There is an outdated list on the site with a fraction of the developers listed.

Quote:
That they are in various countries raises the potential for communication problems within the development core.
I see it as an advantage in many ways. FYI, even PN has a few developers in other countries.
Quote:

Furthermore, if the intent is to frame the PostNuke development community in a bad light
It's not and this is still another point you have missed by even contemplating the idea.
Quote:

People can always die. But, people can be replaced.
Why don't you ask the PN community if they feel that way about their fallen comrade.
Quote:

Just because Albert Einstein died, the world was not left without any geniuses amongst us.
But none are on a level with him.

Duster wrote:
PN has chosen to incorporate pnRender ( a version of Smarty) in future releases of PN. This can cause incompatibility with many modules. Check their forums for more on this.


Quote:

Simultaneously, though, you fail to state what the potential advantages of incorporating Smarty into the PostNuke development strategy might be.
Of course not. You can find that out for yourself at PN from the people who know.
Quote:

As such, your comparison is not balanced, where this particular item is concerned.
Add this to the points you missed.My post is not a comparison. I merely posed a number of questions for people to use in gathering answers and determining the value of those answers for themselves.
Quote:

If MD-Pro has so many developers, list them.
I'll get around to it,but I have more important concerns now, including the user documentation. There is still much to be done. There are also some other projects I will begin work on very soon that will occupy a fair amount of my time.

Duster wrote:
PN .8 will be using the Xanthia templating engine because a PN developer lost their intended Phoenix rendering engine in a hard drive crash. He had no backup for it.

Quote:

Well, if this is true, then it certainly would explain something to me about why the transition to Xanthia was made.
It's true. I read it on the PN forums months ago. Do a search and find out for yourself.

Duster wrote:
MD Pro is a more refined and polished product than PostNuke (that's less subjective though than you might think). A long list of hacks and other improvements was not needed with MDP. Most were already included. It only took suggesting the remaining ones to have them added as well. The differences between MDP and other CMS will grow considerably and the gap between them will widen to a chasm. We have an imaginative and very responsive group of developers and it's a real pleasure (not to mention a lot of fun) working with them.

Quote:

Stating that MD-Pro is, and I quote, "a more refined and polished product than PostNuke," is entirely subjective,
That is why it was stated under the section entitled Subjective.
Quote:

you fail to specifically define what constitutes the basis for establishing something as refined.
See above references to me providing questions, not answers. See dpottier's second post here for one example.

Quote:

That something is a "hack" is not necessarily a bad thing. I change my theme by "hacking" it. Not all hacks are hatchet jobs.
I made no implication that there was anything wrong with hacks. I do feel that some should not be necessary.
Quote:

You state that the differences between MDP and other CMSs will grow considerably and that the gap between them will widen to a chasm. This is nothing more than speculation and conjecture on your part. That may be a desired objective, but at this stage, it is simply speculation.
Not quite. Let's just say I have insider information and leave it at that.

Quote:
I don't mind considering switching. Your article/posting, however, lacks persuasive power to convince me to switch. You should expound upon the strong points of MD-Pro, if possible and where possible, and try to do so with newbies to Content Management Systems and web mastering in mind.
You need imagination and curiosity along with a desire to improve in order to be interested in another CMS. This is why I was keeping an eye on MD-Pro and Xaraya long before I made the change.

I think you expect too much of this simple post. There is other documentation to help beginning admins (one who does not know what a meta tag is could hardly be considered a webmaster). That was not the intent of this post. Over and over you missed that it is about providing questions, not answers.

Quote:

I would be especially interested in hearing about MD-Pro, as it provides flexibility to the web master who does not desire to use AutoThemes.
Read away.
Quote:

I would also be interested in learning how MD-Pro's core development team will enable theme designers to have more control over the output and display of specific information which is output by various modules and blocks, as distinguished from the entireity of information output by such modules and blocks.

I would say that depends greatly on the type of theme you use. You would need to be specific about the theme system in order to get an answer. Do that in a separate discussion though.
Nixon68 - Sep 07, 2004 - 03:54 AM
Post subject: Re: Why Choose MD Pro Over PostNuke
Duster wrote:
While it is mostly neutral or non applicable, it does demonstrate the purpose of my post, to ask questions and let each person find the answers and determine the value of them.
If you only ask questions, ask the right questions. You don't know the latest Postnuke release - so don't compare MD-Pro and Postnuke. I'd never compare both, because I simply don't know MD-Pro. Rolling Eyes

In my opinion your post was pure propaganda - differences between Postnuke and MD-Pro are still so irrelevant that a newbie would notice anything.

If Ephemerids is the first thing on your list of advantages, your list is weak.

But go on making good modules. I myself use MD-Contact - but I'm afraid I move over to Formicula, because that one comes with templates and does about the same.
Duster - Sep 07, 2004 - 06:41 AM
Post subject:
I didn't compare MD-Pro and PostNuke. I only posed some questions people who do want to compare the two might want to get the answers to. I've used both programs and I've worked with both organizations. I asked questions that apply to both programs and left it up to each person to find the answers and weigh the value of both question and answer. In at least one case, neither site has an advantage over the other. PN lists the project manager and staff in the FAQ because I put them there when I was still with PN (actually, I got it started and it was finished by others).I did not remove the lsitings when I left because I thought the PN community should know who the people are in charge of it.

You should look up propaganda as you clearly do not know what it is.

Your attempting to tell someone what he should or should not say qualifies you to be a PN forum moderator. Perhaps you should apply for the position. I asked questions some people might want to consider and pointed out things theymight miss if they didn't take the time to look.

"differences between Postnuke and MD-Pro are still so irrelevant that a newbie would notice anything."

I'd say that contradicts your earlier (ludicrous) statement that "Postnuke aims more at the professional segment. "

You are entitled to your opinion, however flawed it may be.

Since you missed the point, the ephemerids issue is representative of the attention to detail in Md-Pro.
Nixon68 - Sep 07, 2004 - 06:44 PM
Post subject:
Hey! Chill! I didn't defame you you shouldn't to do that either.

1. You only ask questions in the first quarter of your text - beginning with "Features" a long list of answers follows.

2. Asking questions doesn't mean it's not propaganda. I don't want to compare you with the nazis - definitly not. But a famous example for this kind of propaganda ist Joseph Goebbel's Sportpalast speech from 18. February 1943. He asked 10 questions closing with "Do you want the total war?"
So much about questions...

3. I don't contradict myself, I change my mind. A feature of open minded poeple. If Autotheme or Xanthia, which I must admit is the biggest difference in both systems, newbies won't really see the other differences. And it's a pure question of luck, if such a big packet of php scripts work upon first install or not. Mostly it does. If it doesn't for newbies it means that the system sucks. For us professionals it means somethings gone wrong in uploading.
jamesko20 - Sep 07, 2004 - 07:50 PM
Post subject:
Quote from markwest :

Quote:
And that's why I won't comment on Dusters post - he starts out by saying that it's un-biased and then fills the post with as much bias as one can cram into an article. I feel no need to comment on that kind of writing. Each person can make thier own mind up there. When the mind of the person writing a comparison is already made up there is only one outcome.....

In this thread i've added some links to some (very simple) testing comparing the speed of PN to MD-Pro. In addition PN has features that MDPro doesn't (like mdpro has features pn doesn't) e.g. Support for a variety of mail solutions (mailer module), capability of generating XHTML compliant out.

The roadmap of md-pro seems to suggest that the next step for modue development in mdpro is to use pnHTML as it's output method. This output methodlogy has been made deprecated in PN by the advent of pnRender and having worked with pnRender for about a year now could not imagine myself working with pnHTML again. pnHTML is completely designer unfriendly making it virtually impossible for any designer to modify the layout of a module.

Standards support is absolutely key for expanding the usage into the business, public sector and academic environemnts (in particular the latter two). With accessibility laws and guidelines requiring site adminstrators create fully standards compliant, acessable sites it key that a CMS delivers these standards to be considered a professional grade solution. Neither PN .72x or MDPro deliver on these so I don't, personally, think either of these products can be considered professional grade.

.750 moves a step in the right direction here delivering XHTML compliance and, in some areas of the code, a basic level of accessibility. .8x moves much further removing virtually all tables (apart from those used for tabular data), making full use of the power of css and making all markup semantically correct. While this product is not finished yet the code can be checked out from cvs and people can take it for a spin now.

Does maxdev pro really have more developmers - I personally don't know. MDpro has a closed cvs so you can't be certain whose making contributions. There's an often quoted by the mdpro people of 50 developers. I can only guess that this comes from this staff page. If this is the case then 50 'developers' is a bit of a misleading figure. I'd encourage mdpro to become a truly open source project and open up it's cvs for anonymous checkout like PN and virtually all other open source projects do.

I'm confident that we've the quality (more important in my mind than quanity) of people to deliver on those goals. .750 and the changes on postnuke.com (xanthia themes, xhtml compliance) are a reflection of this.

Simply it's not effective to be drawn in to a game of 'my cms is bigger, better etc.' than yours. I believe that postnuke as product, a site and a group of people stands on it's own. I encourage every user to look at all other cms's prior to selecting PN - I did... and i'm happy I made the right choice (at least for me).

-Mark


See this post :
Quote:
http://forums.postnuke.com/index.php?name=MDForum&file=viewtopic&t=31910
Duster - Sep 07, 2004 - 07:51 PM
Post subject:
Nixon68 wrote:
Hey! Chill! I didn't defame you you shouldn't to do that either.
You have my apologies for comparing you to a PN forum moderator. I well understand why you would consider that defamation
Quote:

1. You only ask questions in the first quarter of your text - beginning with "Features" a long list of answers follows.
Those aren't answers to the questions. That is additional information about MDP based on what I learned when I switched over from PN to MDP. Again, I leave it to each individual reading it to weigh the importance for themselves.
Quote:

2. Asking questions doesn't mean it's not propaganda.
It does in this case. Propaganda is "The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause." MDP is neither a doctrine nor a cause. The answers to the questions I asked do not have foregone conclusions. For one thing, they are subject to bias, prejudice and ignorance in the perceptions of the people who read them. For another, the answers to some or all the questions may be of no significance at all to some people.
Quote:

3. I don't contradict myself, I change my mind. A feature of open minded people.
Yes, it is indeed.
Quote:

If Autotheme or Xanthia, which I must admit is the biggest difference in both systems, newbies won't really see the other differences.
Hence the reason for my post.
ics - Sep 08, 2004 - 12:56 AM
Post subject:
Umm... http://www.cmsmatrix.org/

Do a compare, I'd love to know if it accurate because I didn't know some of these features were available
Nixon68 - Sep 08, 2004 - 01:03 AM
Post subject:
Okay, let's leave it to this. This discussion helps no one - perhaps we should better compare Postnuke or MD-Pro to something non-Nuke. Mambo for instance. I checked out Mambo and the content handling really kicks ass while the templating seemed sad. What do you think?
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 01:18 AM
Post subject:
ics wrote:
Umm... http://www.cmsmatrix.org/

Do a compare, I'd love to know if it accurate because I didn't know some of these features were available

It's not the least bit accurate. I did a comparison between MD-Pro and PN. There are gross errors for both and there are so many that the site is useless for a comparison. It's a good idea poorly executed.
ics - Sep 08, 2004 - 01:48 AM
Post subject:
I thought so. I wonder how many people get mislead by this "service"?
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 02:10 AM
Post subject:
jamesko20 wrote:
Quote from markwest :

Thanks James. It doesn't surprise me in the least that PN personnel lack the ethics and decency to discuss anything they have to say on the subject here. They know I am banned and cannot reply on their forums Of course, that may be exactly why they did not post here.

Since they are already aware of this post, I won't ask you to pass it on to them.

Quote:
And that's why I won't comment on Dusters post - he starts out by saying that it's un-biased and then fills the post with as much bias as one can cram into an article.
The reason you don't respond, Mark, is that you know I would expose that asinine remark for the pile of dung it is.
I do have a preference for MDP and I have a good reason. I have used both programs and worked with both organizations. I know which one best suits my preferences. That, however is an informed decision or opinion,which is not the same as bias. I prefer Toyotas, Hondas and Sony as they also represent quality products. Sony, in particular, has many convenience features many other products lack. So it is with MD Pro.

However, the only bias in the questions I posed would be in the perceptions of the individuals who read them and the weight they attach to the answers. Those answers are not a foregone conclusion. Anyone might choose one CMS over the other or neither. The answer to at least one question is an objective tie. Many people will have no interest to questions like the history of each CMS (things that interest me though).

Perhaps you would care to explain how any of these questions could possibly be biased. Perhaps not.

Neither is the PN hacks I don't need in MDP biased. It is a simple truth.The same applies to the features list, which I could have expanded greatly.
Quote:
Each person can make thier own mind up there. When the mind of the person writing a comparison is already made up there is only one outcome.....
What an absolutely idiotic statement to make. In the first place, it is not a comparison. In the second, my preferences have nothing to do with the conclusions people reach on their own.
Quote:

In this thread i've added some links to some (very simple) testing comparing the speed of PN to MD-Pro.
Yada yada yada. More propeller head jargon follows, just as I stated at the beginning of the article. Most programmers typically talk about how something is coded rather than how something functions. Whirrrr. His propeller is spinning furiously. We have lift off.

Quote:

. pnHTML is completely designer unfriendly making it virtually impossible for any designer to modify the layout of a module.
You guys put it into PN. Why did you do it if it is so bad? Why didn't you do it right the first time?
Quote:

Does maxdev pro really have more developmers - I personally don't know. MDpro has a closed cvs so you can't be certain whose making contributions. There's an often quoted by the mdpro people of 50 developers. I can only guess that this comes from this staff page. If this is the case then 50 'developers' is a bit of a misleading figure.
The page is out of date and is being updated now. I know we've had 5 programmers that joined just in the couple of months I've been a part of the project and none of them are listed yet. Two joined just this week.
Quote:

I'm confident that we've the quality (more important in my mind than quanity) of people to deliver on those goals. .750 and the changes on postnuke.com (xanthia themes, xhtml compliance) are a reflection of this.
Yes, but a quantity of quality people is even better. More hands lighten the load.

No one but you made any comments on your ability to meet your own goals. PN. 8 has been talked about for more than 2 years and still has not materialized. Every PN version after .723 was slipped in while promising .8 Assuming you don't perish from old age or other causes, no doubt you will meet your goals. It's easy when there is no timetable, no schedule, and you just leave users waiting, waiting, waiting...

I explained the lack of progress in the past while at PN, but at MDP I've been exposed to the other side argued on the PN forums, about proper management, having a schedule and getting things done in a timely fashion. I do have a preference towards making progress instead of making excuses.

You're being very defensive, unneccessarily so. I made no disparaging remarks about PN or its community, though I very well could have. You should have remained quiet instead of sticking your foot in your mouth.
Quote:

Simply it's not effective to be drawn in to a game of 'my cms is bigger, better etc.' than yours. I believe that postnuke as product, a site and a group of people stands on it's own.
I'd say sits on its own would be more accurate, or perhaps naps on its own.
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 02:59 AM
Post subject:
Nixon68 wrote:
Okay, let's leave it to this. This discussion helps no one - perhaps we should better compare Postnuke or MD-Pro to something non-Nuke. Mambo for instance. I checked out Mambo and the content handling really kicks ass while the templating seemed sad. What do you think?
I think that if you want to compare PostNuke to Mambo, you should go do it. I am not interested in doing any comparisons nor am I interested in switching to any other CMS.

I recommend this site to those who have a reading comprehension problem. Use the guide or not, switch or not and keep your opinion to yourself. It was meant to help you think, not talk.
TiMax - Sep 08, 2004 - 12:22 PM
Post subject:
Sorry Mark,
but why you are so angry and so wrong versus MAXdev ??
Please, let me answer some points
markwest wrote:
And that's why I won't comment on Dusters post - he starts out by saying that it's un-biased and then fills the post with as much bias as one can cram into an article. I feel no need to comment on that kind of writing. Each person can make thier own mind up there. When the mind of the person writing a
comparison is already made up there is only one outcome.....


And you are right, this is Duster and not MAXdev post, this is a post in forum and not article in news, anyone have freedom to say his opinion and so i think also Duster have all rights to say his opinion, this is not mean opinion of Duster is opinion of all MAXdev.

markwest wrote:
In this thread i've added some links to some
(very simple) testing comparing the speed of PN to MD-Pro. In addition PN has features that MDPro doesn't (like mdpro has features pn doesn't) e.g. Support for
a variety of mail solutions (mailer module), capability of generating XHTML compliant out.


I don't understand this comparition, why you talk about fast or not fast, when Duster talk about features ?
And anyway you are wrong, how you can know if MD is capable to generate XHTML compliant code or not if we not have released final version? Maybe we release it compliant maybe not, and about mailer module we have it ready from long time, and lot of other things too, but we not have included it in MD 107, that is because 107 is only fixed version of 106 + some new functions/module to let us test them, is not new version, and you are wrong when you compare MD 107 with PN 750, if you want compare it with PN 726, maybe you can compare 1.1 with 750 .... and maybe in future who know, you can compare PN .8 with MD 1.2
And anyways, we are not sure, but if after your test Postnuke is more fast to MD-Pro where is the problem ? ok PN is more fast ... good work man.

markwest wrote:
The roadmap of md-pro seems to suggest that
the next step for modue development in mdpro is to use pnHTML as it's output method. This output methodlogy has been made deprecated in PN by the advent of
pnRender and having worked with pnRender for about a year now could not imagine myself working with pnHTML again. pnHTML is completely designer
unfriendly making it virtually impossible for any designer to modify the layout of a module.

Oh .... and what let you think our pnHTML is the same of your pnHTML ?
And ok .... pnHTML is deprecated for you, but in the same way renamed Encompass or Xanthia/Encompass/Nomoreblock/Visual block/Control block or XTE or like you want to call it, is deprecated for us
Do you remember ?
// Xanthialution Content Management System
// Copyright (C) 2002 by the Xanthialution Development Team.
// http://www.envolution.com/// Traduzione Italiana a cura dello staff di Xanthialution.it
// per informazioni o suggerimenti contattate TiMax timax@xanthialution.it
Xanthialution ??? LOL
http://mods.postnuke.com/modules.php?op ... =1553#7161
markwest wrote:
Standards support is absolutely key for expanding the usage into the business, public sector and academic environemnts (in particular the latter
two). With accessibility laws and guidelines requiring site adminstrators create fully standards compliant, acessable sites it key that a CMS delivers these standards
to be considered a professional grade solution. Neither PN .72x or MDPro deliver on these so I don't, personally, think either of these products can be considered
professional grade.
.750 moves a step in the right direction here delivering XHTML compliance and, in some areas of the code, a basic level of accessibility. .8x moves much further
removing virtually all tables (apart from those used for tabular data), making full use of the power of css and making all markup semantically correct. While this
product is not finished yet the code can be checked out from cvs and people can take it for a spin now.

Maybe you can have some suprise soon Smile
markwest wrote:
Does maxdev pro really have more developmers - I personally don't know. MDpro has a closed cvs so you can't be certain whose making
contributions. There's an often quoted by the mdpro people of 50 developers. I can only guess that this comes from
this staff page. If this is the case then 50 'developers' is a bit of a misleading figure.


Do you want to try to say we are liars ?
In staff page you have list with all people with all contacts, some people not be listed because they not want be listed, in our mailing list only last month i can count over 1.000 messages, i don't care if you believe it or not, but please not say or not let believe people we are liars.
And anyways MDStaff page are there because i think it is little way to thanks all people work in MD, and maybe your not but i respect and thanks all members of MD staff a lot.

markwest wrote:
I'd encourage mdpro to become a truly open source project and open up it's cvs for anonymous checkout like PN and virtually all other open
source projects do.


This is our choice please respect it, thanks.

markwest wrote:
I'm confident that we've the quality (more important in my mind than quanity) of people to deliver on those goals. .750 and the changes on
postnuke.com (xanthia themes, xhtml compliance) are a reflection of this.


Sorry, i not understand here, do you want to try to say we are stupid ? or our staff is not composed with quality people ? How you measure quality of people ? with lines of code someone are able to write ?

markwest wrote:
Simply it's not effective to be drawn in to a game of 'my cms is bigger, better etc.' than yours. I believe that postnuke as product, a site and a group of people stands on it's own. I encourage every user to look at all other cms's prior to selecting PN - I did... and i'm happy I made the right choice (at least
for me).
-Mark


Here i agree whit you, PN people have his own ideas and follow his way to develope cms, to manage site, to manage forums etc, MAXdev also, we have our own ideas and follow our way to develope cms, manage site, forums, etc.
MAXdev people respect PN people, so please, also for you respect MD people
Sorry for my poor english, and not take this my answer like a flame, this is quiet answer only

TiMax
hazan - Sep 08, 2004 - 12:54 PM
Post subject:
Speedman wrote:
Thanks Duster.

Vanessa, the project manager, is incompetent. Nothing more needs to be said except that the very life of Postnuke depends on her getting out of the way.

It's sad to see Postnuke drying up like this. Notice how new develoment has slowed to a crawl. Why is that? I think its because Postnuke has no direction and it's impossible (or a waste of time) to think long-term in developing something Postnuke. Poor Mark West. He's a good guy carrying more weight than he should have to. It's a bad deal all around.

There's a lot of talent there but, and I might be wrong, I think they are holding their collective noses and waiting for something positive to happen. I take no satisfaction seeing that it's not happening. I'd like to see it happen, but it's just not. I don't think it's going to.

I don't dislike them, in fact, I'm rooting for them. But for now, I'm just sad. I'm very sad.

Speed


I think that this is very sad that MDPRO team allow you to write this.... on their forum.
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 01:23 PM
Post subject:
I did delete one inappropriate post from another PN user with low comprehension. I've been tolerant of the other such posts here, and that one was one too many. There was no value in this person's post.

Batpuppy, however, should heed the adage of people who live in glass houses not throwing stones. He is a hypocrite with his snide 'Guess that is to be expected' remark. It is on PostNuke's forums where posts are regularly locked, deleted and people banned. It's a bit over two months since some of their moderators were rabidly locking and deleting post and banning people from their forums for people being critical of their oppressive behavior. Many PN users are aware of that and evidence should still be available (unless they have deleted all traces of it).

Damn hypocrite!

It is to be expected on PostNuke's forums, .not ours, They have a long record of it.

It would appear that low comprehension runs rampant at PN, along with a lack of ethics. They just don't get that I did not prepare a comparison, just a few questions, an overview of a few features, and a list of hacks I no longer need and will thus not have to add on upgrades. The purpose was to show interested people that there are differences despite the similar external appearance between the two programs. I wish more CMS had something similar.

They also don't get that I talk about features, not coding, as I made clear to most other people.

They could have posted any reply here but instead chose to open a discussion on their own site where I am forbidden to post. I consider that unethical and unfair.

I refrained from disparaging PN or its people as that is not my style. Not once have I said that the answers to any of the questions I asked are important, nor the few features I listed, or that either CMS is better than the other overall. There are areas where both need improvement. Each person can decide for themselves what is important to them.

Even so, the people at PN decided to make it personal, even questioning my honesty. Be warned, you should remember that I have very little patience and tolerance for stupid people and you have used up this year's supply. If you continue with your snide remarks and unethical behavior, I just might share more truth with your community than you would like them to be aware of. You started this and I will finish it.

Read this as it applies to many of you. Your reading comprehension problem proves it well enough
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

Now hush up boys. We''ve heard enough of the hypersensitive and hypocritical. You handled this badly and can't undo it now.
Chestnut - Sep 08, 2004 - 02:19 PM
Post subject:
Duster...

I had no beef with you in the past and you know that. Neither do I have with any people here or with this project (MDPro).

Whatever whoever can think about you thread's first post (and I won't loose time on expressing my own opinion, I clearly think it would be useless), selling your ethic and great speech with gratuitious insults is far from being valuable discussion. (Kruger and Dunning would probably find it strange to be cited in this kind of thread).

I would probably understand you have something against how the PNTeam treated you in the past (won't blabla on my opinion on this one either), but attacking an individual like you do...

You probably had something in your first post... now, it is not only lost in bias information (to state someone else and I confirm) but unfortunatly, also lost in strong sentiments, insults and as you stated about another poster in this very thread : "no value".

(At least this last post I'm answering to, I didn't paid much attention to the rest as I don't care much about such discussions - People choose what they want to choose - That is all).

Thanks to TiMax stating that this is not MaxDev post... but yours.

Thanks for reading...
Have fun !

P.S. : I chose to reply not on the discussion but on the last post... I do not speak for the PNTeam and I won't ever... at least never in a thread that has gone this bad without reason anyway.
Zoom. - Sep 08, 2004 - 03:37 PM
Post subject:
Duster wrote:
I did delete one inappropriate post from another PN user with low comprehension. I've been tolerant of the other such posts here, and that one was one too many. There was no value in this person's post.


Oh my god!!! It’s like an irony buffet!

I distinctly remember these words used in reference to you my dear freind. Ahh! what a little power will do!

Yes sir, I WILL have a little irony with that sandwich!
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 03:40 PM
Post subject:
Hi Chestnut,

Thanks for having the decency to post your comments here. That sets you apart fro the rest of the PN staff posting on this issue.
Quote:

I would probably understand you have something against how the PNTeam treated you in the past (won't blabla on my opinion on this one either), but attacking an individual like you do...
That's in the past history. I'm having too much fun now to dwell in the past.

I think you're overlooking that it is the PN people who made this personal, who became defensive and overreacted and use unethical behavior.

batpuppy makes a big deal out of the post I deleted. It began "I have no intention of switching to MD-Pro." Fine. That made it off topic and of no value. He went on to say something to the effect that attacking PostNuke was negative and that he was just expressing his opinion.

Since PN was not being attacked and still is not, his post is just another stupid post by someone who does not understand what he reads. Furthermore, since he is a PN site administrator, posting as a sockpuppet (a false identity) in support of his site amounts to skullduggery, it is an unethical thing to do.

Now you have the PN project manager making ad hominem attacks and defaming by innuendo. I will not resort to the same. She is PN's problem. You all have to put up with her and her sanctimonious nature. We do not.

I think it best if everyone would mind their own business and go do something else.
Quote:

Thanks to TiMax stating that this is not MaxDev post... but yours.
I specifically stated that my views were my own and not any official view. I'm just a former PN user in a position out a few differences between the two programs for those who are interested. I did not expect nor care for the controversy that was sparked, but the responsibility for that lies elsewhere.

Thanks for dropping by.
binkie - Sep 08, 2004 - 05:09 PM
Post subject:
Quote:
Since PN was not being attacked and still is not, his post jsut anoither stupiod post by someone who does not understnad what he reads. Furhtreremoire, since he is a PN siteadministrator, posting as a sockpuppet (a false identity) in support of his site amounts to skullduggery, it is an unethical thing to do.

A just for your information.
I am not currently and have never been part of the postnuke team. My only connection to postnuke is as a user and a co-developer of some postnuke modules. I was made admin at the postnuke forum long ago when the forums were converted from the old bridge to PNphpBB2 and I guess no one has got around to unadmining me. Any posts that I make are my own and have nothing to do with the postnuke team.
As far as why I was using the name I did, as far as I am aware there is no requirement for anyone to use the same username everywhere. I did at one time use the batpuppy username here but I lost the password and the email address that was used here was killed because of spam and it was easier to just register again rather than go and look up and reactivate the email address temporary.
I will not comment on your personal attacks on me as I think all can see them for what they are.
That being said I am gone from these forums and this site and will never return. But I would like to wish Timax the best of luck with the mdpro project before i go.
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 05:54 PM
Post subject:
Had to get one last shot in, didn't you? You posted as a sockpuppet in defense of PN and made a false statement about it being attacked. That is considered an unethical thing to do (by people who have ethics). Now you are making more snide remarks. Thank you and the PN staff for showing us what you are made of.

I made no attack on you.You began with the Guess that is to be expected snide remarks.That is completely hypocritical given the PN forums and the rampant deletion and locking of posts there. I cannot abide liars and hypocrites and wil call them on it.

Go or stay as you choose, but understand that lies and hypocrisy will not go unchallenged.

"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 06:03 PM
Post subject:
Zoom. wrote:
Duster wrote:
I did delete one inappropriate post from another PN user with low comprehension. I've been tolerant of the other such posts here, and that one was one too many. There was no value in this person's post.


Oh my god!!! It’s like an irony buffet!
Wrong still, just as you are mistaken and don't read minds. I did not want a confrontation over what is meant to be a helpful post. It's not an irony buffet, it's a manure detector. I know a sockpuppet when I see one and I wanted to see which hand this one belonged too. Now we know.

Since your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand and YOU are clearly posting to be inflammatory and are invited to leave. Go join your ethics lacking cronies.

Don't let the door hit 'ya where the good Lord split 'ya.

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 06:32 PM
Post subject:
Incidentally, binkie, you contradicted your self.
Quote:

I am not currently and have never been part of the postnuke team. My only connection to postnuke is as a user and a co-developer of some postnuke modules. I was made admin at the postnuke forum long ago ...

There are two possibilites here. You are lying or you are mistaken. I believe you are mistaken. You were made an admin at PN, and you still carry that title under your user name.

Do you understand why that negates the "have never been part of the postnuke team" part? That simply isn't true. You were part of the PN team at one time.

You don't have to leave on my account. I do caution you to leave the snide remarks behind though. Remember too that if things got unpleasant for you, that you brought them on yourself. If you had just had the good sense to keep quiet, you would not be choosing to leave now. Think about that!

Unfortunately, that sense is greatly lacking where you hail from. More's the pity.

If you decide to return, we can come up with a custom avatar for you. Here's one rendition for your consideration

Image
upaja - Sep 08, 2004 - 07:23 PM
Post subject:
removed as useless and out of topic

upaja
Duster - Sep 08, 2004 - 07:44 PM
Post subject:
I'm quite calm, thank you.

That's enough of any comments that don't pertain to the subject as posted. The folks on the PN forums have halted their attacks and it is time now to move on. Move on.
SimMayor - Sep 08, 2004 - 08:34 PM
Post subject:
Interesting comparison, but it is too much like an advertisement speech, to be taken too serious. What I strongly agree, was the "We invite you to install MD Pro and see for yourself."

I am currently using PN, but have tested others like MD PRO, too. As a user the main features for me in the core are speed and reliablility, but the modules are far more important. So is the language (core translations). For my point of view I saw huge pros and cons in both PN and MD PRO, but after all it was probably just some small details that made me stick with PN.

I don't see the differences as a comparison between two CMS, but more like a comparison between the needs of an user and the features of different CMS. It looks like PN and MD PRO are taking different routes and it really means suitability for different purposes.

There is room for all the CMS's, but this thread makes me wonder, why some people keep barking and insulting others, instead of doing what they are better in. Personal attacks only hurt the attacker's organization.
zecompadre - Sep 08, 2004 - 11:17 PM
Post subject:
lets make some order in the house ! lets be constructive and not make a war form the Duster post !
Darksky - Sep 08, 2004 - 11:51 PM
Post subject:
CMS[$i] = Array( phpnuke, postnuke, envolution, mdpro ).

I'm a former

for ( $i; $i<=4; I$++ )
{echo CMS[$i] User; }

And in the last year i used only mdpro.
I think that, even if could be good intention, a post with title "Why choose X over Y" will bring anyway to flame, competition, verbal fighting. If Ghandi or Einstein could come here and start a similar thread...well the result will be ever a flame or verbal fighting..and this is "natural".
In my humble opinion MD-Pro doesn't need all this. Who has counscioness of his own "power" doesn't need to go around yelling how he's strong.
We know that MDPRO dev, Timax mainly, are happy if a new user is a "smart user", a person that uses his brain, that, i apologize, "move his ass". A person that come here only because someone tell his about MD-Pro power and did not tried his self MDPRO, is not that kind of person.
I want underline again that this is not a Duster mistake. Mistake is in thread title and approach.
A title as :"Why choose MDPRO" ( and stop ) coul be the best. A thread with a list of commented cool and unique feature, without comparison or other cms cites, shoule be the best.
i think mdpro community doesn't need stupid wars, doesn' need what we in Italy call "autogoal".

PS: Ok...i know, may be mi starting php code could be wrong Very Happy
PPS: "autogoal" is when a football player mark a goal against his own team
serg - Sep 09, 2004 - 02:51 AM
Post subject:
Ghm ...

$CMSs = Array('phpnuke', 'postnuke', 'envolution', 'mdpro');
foreach ($CMSs as $CMS) echo $CMS;

Happy coding Wink
ics - Sep 09, 2004 - 07:45 AM
Post subject:
With all due respect, this topic weakens the perception that MDPro is a serious contender for the CMS Crown. I have Several MDPro and PostNuke sites. It's the PostNuke compatability that prompted me to even try MDPro. I haven't made the final commitment to either, only time will tell.

I'd venture to say that any value this topic had was lost somewhere on page one. As an outsider, nobody is looking that professional right now. Delete this topic or the entire image is tarnished.

I also don't believe that "this is not the official position of maxdev" disclaimer removes responsibility from Timax. You must set standards of behaviour and team members must follow them.

This is way out of hand. I feel the need to shower now.
TiMax - Sep 09, 2004 - 08:03 AM
Post subject:
ics wrote:
I'd venture to say that any value this topic had was lost somewhere on page one. As an outsider, nobody is looking that professional right now. Delete this topic or the entire image is tarnished.


I think is not your problem to decide if delete or not this post

ics wrote:
I also don't believe that "this is not the official position of maxdev" disclaimer removes responsibility from Timax. You must set standards of behaviour and team members must follow them.

I don't care if you beleive or not, this is not official position of MAXdev, do you have read somewhere signature with " The MAXdev staff " ?
We have standards of behaviour and all team members follow them, this post not break them.
Sure you can agree or not agree, but that is
Duster - Sep 09, 2004 - 08:14 AM
Post subject:
SimMayor wrote:
Interesting comparison, but it is too much like an advertisement speech, to be taken too serious.

I don't see the differences as a comparison between two CMS, but more like a comparison between the needs of an user and the features of different CMS.
Bingo! It's so nice to hear from someone who understands the difference between a quick overview and an in-depth analysis.

You are correct in that my post does serve much as an advertisement,although I hadn't thought of it that way. If Ford claims that their new F100 has a larger bed and more cargo carrying capacity than Chevy and any other truck in their class, Chevy doesn't attack Ford for saying so. They just make their commercials and put their product in its best light. They also don't criticize Ford for not inviting them to have a voice in Ford's ad nor for Ford not comparing every detail of the two trucks.

While the larger carrying capapcity of the F100 might encourage more people to take a look at it (which was the intention of the ad after all) any serious buyer is going to look at a lot more than just the cargo bed and make up their own mind as to which truck best suits their needs. They aren't going to buy the F100 just because they saw an ad for it.

What a pity so many people miss simple points like this and want to make more out of something than it is.

Quote:

It looks like PN and MD PRO are taking different routes and it really means suitability for different purposes.
I don't see how you came to this conclusion as the differences are not that great. It would be like saying the F100 and Chevy truck have different purposes because the F100 has a padded dash and doors, and a CD-player whereas the Chevy has bare metal doors and dash and an AM/FM radio. Their purpose is still the same despite the esthetic refinements one has.


DISCLAIMER: Ford and Chevy trucks were used as an example. The differences cited are simply hypothetical for the purposes of examples and have no basis in any real differences between the vehicles.
ics - Sep 09, 2004 - 08:44 AM
Post subject:
TiMax wrote:
I think is not your problem to decide if delete or not this post

TiMax wrote:
I don't care if you beleive or not,

Nice. I was voicing a perception not an instruction. You will do as you see fit and it's up to you. On the other hand, you should care what public perception is. I'm not associated with any project, I've tried to be a helpful member of the community (search my posts), I've offered to pay for and donate to public domain a custom module that I need (one that Duster said may have features that will be included in future releases of MDPro).

Hostility is uncalled for and it's sad that it was resorted to. Remember, perception is reality. Take it as an observation not an attack.
TiMax - Sep 09, 2004 - 09:29 AM
Post subject:
ics wrote:
TiMax wrote:
I think is not your problem to decide if delete or not this post

TiMax wrote:
I don't care if you beleive or not,

Nice. I was voicing a perception not an instruction. You will do as you see fit and it's up to you. On the other hand, you should care what public perception is. I'm not associated with any project, I've tried to be a helpful member of the community (search my posts), I've offered to pay for and donate to public domain a custom module that I need (one that Duster said may have features that will be included in future releases of MDPro).

Hostility is uncalled for and it's sad that it was resorted to. Remember, perception is reality. Take it as an observation not an attack.


I read it like a istruction, or better like a command. re-read please your post.
and remember we not sell nothing, if you want donate that is nice, if you contribute also that is nice, but that not give you right to command ... delete that or .... delete this or.... you must do that .... and you must do this .....
ics - Sep 09, 2004 - 10:48 AM
Post subject:
Maybe it's a language difference but I'll quote myself:
ics wrote:
Delete this topic or the entire image is tarnished.

It's like I said, "clean your cut or you'll get an infection" or "Bring an umbrella or you'll get rained on". Hardly a command which I expected you to obey. I'd expect you to do the right thing from your own perspective.

I apologize if you misunderstood me but the hostility was (is) uncalled for.
Duster - Sep 09, 2004 - 02:26 PM
Post subject:
ics wrote:
With all due respect, this topic weakens the perception that MDPro is a serious contender for the CMS Crown.
In your perception, perhaps,but the truth is that my personal statements have no effect on that.

Quote:
I also don't believe that "this is not the official position of maxdev" disclaimer removes responsibility from Timax. You must set standards of behaviour and team members must follow them.
Believe it or don't, but I speak for myself only. I think you will find the folks at PN would agree with that. Even when I was part of the now defunct pnCorps, my opinions were my own. I was critical of the PN team even while a part of it. No one tells me what to say nor do I follow any "party line."
Quote:

I'd venture to say that any value this topic had was lost somewhere on page one.

I'd agree with you on that. We had someone posting his intallation problem inappropriately, a fledgling site admin who does not even use a CMS expecting more than was offered, and someone with a bare knowledge of PN making comments that had no relevance and expecting a comparison. That was just before the controversy began elsewhere.

Some people just won't stick to the topic at hand.

Quote:

Delete this topic or the entire image is tarnished.
In reference to your discussion of this, can you not see how it does sound too much like an edict? You should have worded it to reflect your opinion without making it seem as if you were issuing orders.A better choice of words would be "I think you should delete this topic as I think it tarnishes the image of MDP."

This is especially true when people have been engaged in heated discussion. Any latitude in interpretation may be lost under such circumstances (it wasn't with me though). Regardless of your intent, your statement is an edict. It will especially come across as such by people who read English as second language and read your statement literally.

Deletions are a tricky thing. Do you want to limit the abilty for people to express themselves just because you don't like what they have to say or they shouldn't have said it? Look at some of the early posts in this discussion. One guy posted about his installation problem again because he got no response in his appropraite posting. Nothing he had to say was pertinent to this discussion. A clueless novice admin kept asking for answers he is supposed to find for himself. Someone else was looking for a real comparison. One feels like yelling at them to PAY ATTENTION and stick to the topic. All their posts were really off topic yet remain.

Because I have the ability, I could have edited out their posts and left a message why, telling them to stick to the topic. Between the fact that I posted in an unofficial capacity and that I don't care for limiting people, even when their comments are totally inappropriate, their comments remain untouched by me.

Sometimes people should just remain quiet, but I won't silence them if they don't have the taste or sense to remain so. People are responsible for their own comments. Even so, there are people who would stifle comments they do not approve of. The sockpuppet case is a special case. I made one deletion to smoke out a sock puppet and I'm glad I did. It confirmed my belief and the sockpuppet exposed himself.

Whether or not to respond to comments is not an easy decision, especially when those comments come from someone associated with a project. When they question one's judgment and honesty, they put things on a personal level. I won't let that go unchallenged.

"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

If it goes unchallenged, some people believe it. Some will believe it on the basis that it is unchallenged.

If you do challenge it, you run the risk of controversy, as we have seen recently. While I enjoy peace and avoid controversy when I can, I will face it head on when it is thrust upon me. I'd rather go through the unplesantness of such a confrontation than let defamatory remarks go unchallenged.

There is no better choice. It's a question of what one's priorities and values are.

"In matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson.
Chestnut - Sep 09, 2004 - 06:36 PM
Post subject:
Seems like the heat has gone down a bit and I guess every reader or participant could be grateful. So what I will say could be taken as a suggestion... for the future ?

Duster, stay focus... insulting a group or an individual, making little drawing and such doesn't give any credit to you, the discussion (wehn it is not the subject) nor your own group (you'll see why 2 or 3 lines below). Ya you've been offended in the past but one day or another, you'll have to move on too... even if you say you did. Nobody in this thread insulted you, there was never a need for some of yours.

Timax, while it is not Maxdev's opinion, you cautioned this attitude :

TiMax wrote:
We have standards of behaviour and all team members follow them, this post not break them.


If your team members has the power to insult anyone he wants and that this is within the standards of behavior of yours or your team or your forums... one day or another, this team member, you, the group or the project itself will suffer from this "laxism". Saying otherwise demonstrate a lack of experience and you have plenty of experience as far as I know.

Duster... you should do like me... I do this on my own site for a reason (and not only because nobody reads. Laughing You probably remember some of my own heat).

And... lastly... words of wisdom is not to be used in a thread where everything surrounding it is destroying their values... For whoever understands... great for him.

That sums it up for me.
Good luck in all you projects. Wink

(Hope everyone saw that this was not sarcastic... ha ha ha ! )
TiMax - Sep 09, 2004 - 06:51 PM
Post subject:
Sorry Ches is late and maybe you are tired but can you show me where Duster have insult someone in post quote bellow ?

Why each time someone think and write different some people take it like an insult .... please stop to be children .... i can found lot and lot of post similar of that, and also offensive in Postnuke forum and nobody say nothing ....


Duster wrote:
One can go to opensourcecms.com and see a slew of CMS programs that look like each other and may offer very few differences. With so many of them looking alike, how do you decide which one is for you? If you are considering PostNuke or are already using it, there are several reasons why we think you will find MD Pro to be a superior choice. You can download both programs or just the one you lack, but it takes time to study a program and you may overlook some important and even critical factors. You may be deceived by appearances. This guide is intended to help you in your selection not by giving you answers, but by giving you questions and letting you find your answers. Thus, the issue of bias is eliminated as you arrive at your own conclusions finding answers to questions that apply to both CMS programs.

For this comparison, we will use the MD Pro 1.07 RC1 and PostNuke 0.726 releases. These are the two versions the author of this article (Duster) is familiar with. Further, only the official packages are used in this comparison. Hacks and third party resources are not considered for either program. The purpose of this guide is to help you determine which is the better choice as it comes distributed. For many people, better will mean the easiest choice to both install and administer.

The Sites and Communities

A program is only as good as the people behind it. Consider the following in conjunction with features as you consider the options.

Communication with the community

Compare the two websites. Look up comments on this subject on the PN forums. Look up the same thing on MDP's site. Which do you feel places a greater importance on communicating with its community, including the end users, on a regular basis? Do you know who the project manager is for each CMS? How often do they communicate with the community?

Which tells you of its history?

Documentation

Compare documentation for the two programs. Which do you feel is more abundant and better able to help you with your concerns as a beginner? Is the documentation for either program adequate in addressing your installation and usage questions? Is there an ongoing effort to add to it and improve it?

Site navigation

How easy can you find your way around the respective sites? Is the site cluttered? Can you find documentation easily? Can you find third party blocks and modules easily? Do you spend more time looking than finding?

Development time

How long does it take for the next release? How long does it take for good suggestions to be added?

Next release date

Is there a projected next release date? Do the developers have a good record of keeping their projections? Is the next release weeks away or years?

Forthcoming Features

Do you know what features will be in the next version? Has there been any feedback on previously suggested features and any indication if they will be included? Are feature suggestions just generally ignored or commented on with no indication of future inclusion?

Number of developers

How many active developers are there for each CMS? The answer to this one may surprise you and teach you a lesson about making assumptions based on appearances.

Features

Only MDP has the following features and refinement. PN does not

    The ephemerid block does not show on days with no ephemerid

    Ephemerids are sorted by month, date and year and displayed in that manner (to the admin)

    The user points feature is included

    Moderated registration is possible

    MDP is search engine friendly. You can customize page names and descriptions for your entire site

    MDP allows for customizable meta tags for each page

    MDP comes with built in short URL support (with a choice of extensions)

    Admin section has option of all sections together or separated by tabs

    News module can have multiple pages and columns

    Dynamic menu with multiple levels

    and a whole lot more


Compare Subjects (MDP) to Sections (PN). The former allows you to enter search engine terms on the same screen where you enter an article. The latter is oblivious to search engines. Furthermore, it allows you to separate articles into multiple pages. Which would you rather use?

Built in database backup

MDP has built in database support and is shown on the admin menu because regular backups are important and we understand the concept of "out of sight out of mind". We think regular backups are so important that you should be able to perform them from within your CMS. How does PN handle db backups? Are external programs such as phpMyAdmin necessary?

Theme engine

MDP uses the popular HTML based AutoTheme program for its theme engine, although all types of themes are supported. There are hundreds of themes available for it. If you know it already, you don't have to learn something new. Since it is HTML based, it is easier to use than other systems and you can use Dreamweaver and other popular HTML editors to create and modify your themes.

Speaking of themes, MDP includes logo blanks so you may rapidly replace our logo with yours and make use of existing themes within minutes. Can that be said of PN's themes?

Refinement

MDP has a more refined look which makes data entry easier. The refinement doesn't stop there though. We are examining every part of MDP and how it functions to eliminate confusion and deficiencies passed on from parent sources PostNuke and Envolution. This is why our ephemerids block functions properly, and why you will see many refinements in MDP that you will not find elsewhere. Using a concept named zero based functionality, we examine how every part of MDP should work and then go about making sure it works that way. We pay attention to small details as well as major functions.

Doing little things well leads to doing bigger things better.

Look at the modules section of the two. The MDP modules section more easily conveys the status of the module, whether it is active, disabled or not initialized.

PN Hacks I DON'T need with MD-Pro

    Title Hack, which allows module titles to be displayed in the browser title area

    pnMeta to allow editing of meta keyword tags for each module

    pncUserHack to moderate user registration (very helpful at thwarting spammers from registering).

    A simple editing hack to the login/registration block to make login information more direct and straighforward.

    A hack to make Web Links balanced (it allows specifying the number of subcategory levels to be specified).

    Another hack to Web Links that enables a different folder icon to be used for the subcategories, creating a greater visual distinction between category and subcategory.

    Another hack to Web Links that requests a reciprocal link of anyone placing a link.

    A hack to add subcategories to Sections

    A hack to prevent the ephemerids block from being displayed on days for which there are no ephemerids

    Another hack to ephemerids to have the dates sorted by month and day and then year in the admin section

    The main menu has been organized and titles changed to make it more user friendly and intelligible.

    A hack to the main menu to make long listings line up below the first line.

Looking ahead

MDP

The future of MDP is smaller than PN's, while larger at the same time. MDP 1.1 will have a smaller, leaner core. Only components considered essential for most any site will be included in its core. All the remaining modules and blocks will be optional add-ons during the installation process or later. This will include such features as ephemerids, quotes and many others. This will make it easier for people who install MDP for the first time as they won't have a lot of unused features to disable and delete.

It will be much like installing Linux where you choose what you want installed. Even for the modules you do want to install, you will be able to choose from any on the same subject. Some site admins will require only lightly featured modules while others will prefer more robust modules for commercial purposes.

Our add-ons though, will carry the same commitment to make them the best that the core modules have. They will also enjoy the benefit of support as our core modules do. Note that this does not apply to third party add-ons.

The MaxDev Association

We are in the process of setting up the MaxDev Association, a not-for profit organization to secure the future of MD- Pro. All assets of the Maxdev Project will be transferred to it and it will oversee global marketing and several other activities.

Of course, it helps to have over fifty developers in various countries also, with more joining our team periodically. MDP is not dependent on the efforts of a very small number of developers whose departure or loss could stall, cripple or halt development altogether.

PN

PN has chosen to incorporate pnRender ( a version of Smarty) in future releases of PN. This can cause incompatibility with many modules. Check their forums for more on this.

MDP is advanced faster

PN may look bigger but MDP has many more developers. PN has a few, but most of the work is done by just one developer, Mark West.

Consequently, MDP is advanced faster than PN. MDP is a multi national collaboration with multiple sites (more than a dozen). That gives it built in redundancy and backup. PN is centralized with all functions controlled from one site. it has all it eggs in one basket. PN .8 will be using the Xanthia templating engine because a PN developer lost their intended Phoenix rendering engine in a hard drive crash. He had no backup for it.

Subjective part

MD Pro is a more refined and polished product than PostNuke (that's less subjective though than you might think). A long list of hacks and other improvements was not needed with MDP. Most were already included. It only took suggesting the remaining ones to have them added as well. The differences between MDP and other CMS will grow considerably and the gap between them will widen to a chasm. We have an imaginative and very responsive group of developers and it's a real pleasure (not to mention a lot of fun) working with them.

As an admin, I like the fact that MDP has built in search engine friendly features and I don't have to add third party hacks to address this severe shortcoming. I like that it has the capability for moderated registration now. It's a feature I need. I had just gotten through adding pncUserPoints to my last PN site when I moved to MDP and discovered they too were built in. I like the fact that the people behind MD Pro think of al these details and how their product will be used in the real world. Unlike PN, there is nothing in MD Pro I need to fix.

If you are still using PN, you should give some serious thought to changing to MD Pro, or just do it. You'll be glad you did and that's an understatement.

About the author

This article was written by Duster. He began following PostNuke in May 2002 and began using it in January 2003. He moved to MD Pro in June 2004. The intent of this article is to help other people using or considering PN based on my experiences with both products and with both organizations. Furthermore, this article reflects my personal experiences and is not a part of any official MD-Pro stance.




Summary

Programs fork for many reasons. Often, emphasis is on the code, which explains why so many deficiencies are passed on from one Nuke fork to another and nothing is done about them. Many developers don't think of how a module or block functions. They only think of how it is coded. At MD Pro, we have taken a different path. While our programmers are optimizing the code, they are also improving the functionality of all the parts and make them function as they should. We have an imaginative and highly responsive group of developers. They strive for excellence on a continual basis. Some improvements are made in as little as a few minutes. We employ the talents of many people, from programmers to document writers, wherever they live in the world. Their combined efforts can be found in an excellent product destined to be even better. We invite you to install MD Pro and see for yourself.
Chestnut - Sep 09, 2004 - 08:44 PM
Post subject:
You are joking right?? Shocked

Should I ask you : Are the "standards of behavior" only good in the initial post of a thread?

I'm not making comparisons TiMax... you are doing it. Whatever there is in the other forums, should you let the same happen here?

I wasn't talking about the initial post but about the overall answers we can find in this thread (wich means that if you are serious with your question, you probably didn't read it all).

But hey... if you don't see what I mean... who cares I guess.
T'was only a suggestion anyway and we know that 99% of suggestion goes to poupou.

Have fun ! (And I'm gone for good).
Duster - Sep 09, 2004 - 09:22 PM
Post subject:
Chestnut wrote:

I wasn't talking about the initial post but about the overall answers we can find in this thread (wich means that if you are serious with your question, you probably didn't read it all).
It wasnlt my question but I did read eveything I wrote in this discussion. Where's the insult?

It's easy to make ad hominem attacks on people but backing up views with facts is considerably harder for some.
Chestnut - Sep 09, 2004 - 10:03 PM
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Laughing

Even if I give fact and views, it is clear that it would be pointless...

Now it's true... I'm gone for good. Otherwise I'll be called lier, stupid, hypocrite, etc. and have a cute little image as custom avatar. No need to see all the views as I know what I am. Wink

Still wishing luck to this project and to those who are making worth it... and to support the others. He he!

Ciao ciao!
tulikettu - Sep 09, 2004 - 10:06 PM
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Sorry, no more valid link removed
Duster - Sep 10, 2004 - 07:17 AM
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Chestnut wrote:
Laughing

Even if I give fact and views, it is clear that it would be pointless...

In other words, you are making an unsubstantiated charge. You claim I insulted someone but you can't provide any proof. You PN people seem to be fond of doing that.

Don't let the door hit 'ya where the good Lord split 'ya.
eq_image - Sep 10, 2004 - 12:27 PM
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I personally have tried to tangle with MaxDev, but found it kind of petty to deal with. Compared to my current CMS "Xoops" I found that Xoops, is much easier to Install and Render. I was not able to fully render the MaxDev CMS. It is a shame because I think it has alot of potential. I guess the Object Orientation of Xoops makes it easier for non-techies to learn and execute.
Chestnut - Sep 11, 2004 - 12:32 AM
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Was dropping by as I forgot to remove the notification and saw your answer you couldn't refrain yourself to do...

Duster wrote:
You claim I insulted someone but you can't provide any proof.

I feel like your Dada who must show you the answer to 1+1 when you are totally able to answer 9x9... Go to page three, in my previous previous posts, I wrote all you need to search there to grasp the meaning of what I said.

If you can't find it... not my problem. Others and many who came to me about all this found it very easily. This thread would not even been like this if it weren't true anyway. I only made the suggestion that those lines weren't necessary.

Duster wrote:
You PN people seem to be fond of doing that.


There goes another one. (a light one)

I wonder what gives you the obsession to always associates a simple answer to a title. Although you don't know me well (as I don't know you well, that is not something bad or special, only a fact), I thought that from the way you knew me from the tiny little past we had, I made my point that I spoke as the individual and not for any team whatsoever and that you respected me enough or my opinion (and I even thought so with your first answer to my first post in this thread) to at least not jump on me like this.

Guess I was wrong.

You would probably have said the same thing if your problem was with envo and that I was with envo. As if all ideas I could have was brainwashed by the team or community I was in.

It's an habit people have when they are in X team or community to always say something like this about a Y person who is in a Z team community. You are not the first nor an exception and you probably won't be the last. It's always like this... (Although I don't remember, I probably did it once myself somewhere in my 4 years in the CMS world).

I for myself do not associate you with your team. You wrote something, it was made clear that it was not the team speaking and I never said otherwise.

I already said that : My coming up here is not to perpetuate the heat (although now I guess the consequences will be so unfortunatly - And I apologize sincerily for any further heat this message could provoke.) but to suggest to stay focused on what was the point of your initial post.

So you don't need to hit on me as if I was the one with whom you had a problem. Or as if you needed to transpose your PNProblem on me.

We had no problem, but if we must have one, let's take the challenge (as you call those situation) to end it without going further, that would be the real challenge... the other way around would only be lost energies.

Hope that sums it up.

I don't feel the need to justify my actions to anyone, you, your team or mine... only to be there and be witness of what is happening in every mind around...

And learn... from everyone.

Have fun ! Wink

P.S. : All is said in a light attitude and not to be taken badly Wink - If so, it wasn't the goal.
Duster - Sep 11, 2004 - 04:13 AM
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We still don't have a problem. We just have a disagreement on this single issue.
Nixon68 - Sep 11, 2004 - 08:27 AM
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I felt insulted - or at least attacked. That's what I meant when I said I didn't expect the Spanish inquisition.

If nobody got the point of the original post, there are two solutions: Everybody is stupid or it's poorly written.

And I must agree that this whole thread throws a bad light on the MD-"Pro" Community. I've seen similar discussions in other forums far more productive. Maybe Duster wasn't banned without reason... Rolling Eyes
Speedman - Sep 11, 2004 - 01:20 PM
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Is anyone of us who posted in this thread really free of blame? We came here to vent, to show loyalty to the home team and, yes I'm afraid, even to do a little old fashioned, school yard, jaw-boning.

This has gone too far and we're to blame...all of us and each of us.

Now it's all been said and nothing more needs to be said. Debating which CMS is better and who has the better team is pointless if we have not enough character to know when to quit.

We have shown weakness but I trust the majority of us (PNers and MDPers, alike) are not weak. It's time to show our strength.

For sure, there will be one or two or more baiting words that are sure to be posted before this thread fades away. I urge everyone to ignore them. There can be no victory here.

It's time to move on.

Speed
Duster - Sep 11, 2004 - 01:40 PM
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Nixon68 wrote:
I felt insulted - or at least attacked. That's what I meant when I said I didn't expect the Spanish inquisition.
Donlt be a drama queen. You weren't attacked at all. You weren't even criticized for posting off topic. NOTHING you said had any relevance to this discusssion. There is no reason for you to feel insulted or attacked. There is plenty of reason for you to feel ashamed and embarrased from your posts.
Quote:

If nobody got the point of the original post, there are two solutions: Everybody is stupid or it's poorly written.
That would be reasons,not solutions, and some people did get it. You were not among them. You substituted your own topic instead and talked about things specifically excluded, such as third party modules.
Quote:

Maybe Duster wasn't banned without reason...

Damn you for your malicious comment.

Instead of letting this issue subside, you feel the need to voice your worthless opinion. Some people just don't know when to remain quiet. Here's a hint: you are long past that point. You should not have posted at all since nothing you said is relevant here.

(_x_)
ics - Sep 11, 2004 - 04:14 PM
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Duster wrote:
Some people just don't know when to remain quiet.
Silenced
Duster - Sep 11, 2004 - 07:00 PM
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As might be expected from a hypocrite,after posting lies about the recent unpleasantness on his forum, and getting a reply, batpuppy deleted the entire post.I expected ity and did a screen capture first.

Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and like the play the victim. Tsk tsk. They need to grow up.

Image
ics - Sep 12, 2004 - 03:20 AM
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OMG Man. Have you ever heard of taking the high road? I can't begin to tell you how much it concerns me that PNphpBB2 is cutting off support for mdpro. One of my sites needs an upgrade and I was planning to switch it to mdpro. I'm rethinking that. All because of this post and the obvious fall out.

The major reason that I use CMS code on sites is to build community. The message board is the key factor in achieving that goal. Choosing a CMS is almost dictated by the message boards available to them. On every CMS that I run, the message board is the largest single component. On of my sites runs over 7 million hits a month and I converted it to MDPRO because I was able to migrate UBB to phpBB2 to PNphpBB2. It's 8 years worth of content and nothing else on the site matters as much as that does. Unless upgrades or a conversion path is available to my message board, I may be forced to change it to Postnuke. Everything else a CMS does, to me, is gravy.

Why am I posting? I'm not sure. I am afraid that maxdev will stop helping me with issues but for every person that speaks out, there are a 100 that don't. I don't even care who's right or wrong. I'm only concerned with what the programs do and the support I can get and the feeling that my choice isn't a dead end. I'm getting really bad feelings. I know that logic dictates that I don't read this topic if it offends me but information is the lifelood of a site and if I didn't read it, I wouldn't know about the PNphpBB2 decision.

You're losing far more than you're winning here.
tradenet - Sep 12, 2004 - 03:23 AM
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As the "fly-on-the-wall" here, I REALLY think people should sit back and take a BIG deep breath.....this is not productive at all and just leads to hard feelings. IMHO.
TiMax - Sep 12, 2004 - 03:28 AM
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and what let you beleive we sleep ?
We too need forum, they not support us, is ok and maybe we not support them, but we talk now in our mailing list what is better to do for us, continue development of pnphpbb with a sort of mdphpbb ? change and go with Invision board, or Vbulletin or W-Agora we are talking now in our mailing list, maybe we publish news about and ask our users what they prefered too.
Soon i plain also to release new version of Arena Forum for people need small forum with nice integration.

Anyways not worry, we not talk a lot but we not sleep ... and soon you can read about some nice suprise here Smile
tradenet - Sep 12, 2004 - 03:37 AM
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Hehehe TiMax...sleep...what's that? I personally like what's going on at http://www.simplemachines.org
The coppermine people are using it too.
jackquake - Sep 13, 2004 - 01:24 AM
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I concur. Simple Machines looks pretty nice.
Zoom. - Sep 13, 2004 - 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Compare Subjects (MDP) to Sections (PN).


A good example of why one should compare more than functionality. Also a good example of why cooperation and collaboration always wins the day. I would advice all novice users of open source software to go beyond simple surface comparisons. There are a lot of great products out now; get to know a whole handful and keep track of developments in each community. Especially in the nuke arena, issues that affect one will often affect all. In the end you will obviously choose one for your live site, but experiment and get to know a few at least. Don't feel like you have to get caught in the dogmatic loyalty to one code base or another.
ifteba - Sep 13, 2004 - 05:27 AM
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Quote:

I concur. Simple Machines looks pretty nice.


i agree Smile
But main concern would be to have a good convertion from PNphpbb as we know most of us used PNphpbb for our forum in MD.

As looking into Simple Machines Community looks like they are open like MD community here. I would say this 2 community would be stronger one. PNpbpbb was a really bulky one ported from phpbb. But Simple Machines Community is really slim one with lots of good features as PNphpbb has. Hope TiMax and his team will decide better one for us.

One thing I am concerned is about the attachment mod for PNphpbb and Quick reply mod it will be really nice to have on any of the forum MD team decide to go with.

Thank you.
Darksky - Sep 13, 2004 - 06:29 AM
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ifteba wrote:

One thing I am concerned is about the attachment mod for PNphpbb and Quick reply mod it will be really nice to have on any of the forum MD team decide to go with.

Thank you.


Also, capabilities to have sub-forum and forum category.
Big Community need this kind of multilevel forum structure, i suppose.

But the very important factor is a migration procedure from pnphpbb2.
Nixon68 - Sep 15, 2004 - 09:25 AM
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I tried to point out some weaknesses in the layout of your initial post, some of which remain still valid. You shouldn't have compared an outdated version. That always looks like cheating.
I think the whole affair about you subject module showed the danger of taking every cool-looking mod into core distributions without taking a deeper look at it. You showed me some things in MD-Pro I didn't see before and I accepted it.

You don't want any discussion - so I'm gone. Please delete my account.
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